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Master Thread: “Objectivism versus Subjectivism” debate and is there a middle ground?

JohnVF

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Notice I'm only holding forth on this here, not on Audiogon, or super best friends or whatever. I understand 99.9% of the world doesn't give a damn about these distinctions, but here we do.
I mean, why would anybody go to SBAF? And yes I've seen the douchey types spoken of on Audiogon but rarely do I run across them in real life. The internet really brings out the extremes in people.
 

JohnVF

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You define fun your way, and others will define it their way. If others aren't entitled to tell you how to have fun, then what standing do you have to tell them how to have fun?

I wonder to what extent those those think all ASR does is argue about this stuff venture away from the threads where these arguments have been channeled, and read from the archives and from threads that are delving into some corner of audio science. I hope (at least) I'm not talking about you--you have been around enough to have seen things. But new folks who seem to come here with the express purpose of telling ASR regulars what hopeless nerds they are, and how they are the death of enjoyment. Those who do so in bad faith eventually get booted, and they go back whence they came with their "banned from ASR" badge of honor, one supposes. But I'm talking about those who do so in good faith--come here resistant to any form of actual testing of their own perceptions. Rather than take up the torch of their sacred flame, maybe they would benefit from just reading a bit, trying some things like online ABX tests, and get away from the threads where these arguments are contained.

Most of us like our setups, even those we constructed prior to coming here. I don't see Amir selling his high-end amps, or Frank selling his reference turntable, etc. But some have sold off a bunch of expensive stuff on realizing that all they were getting was a brand name rather than real performance. Just as many resolutely hold on to archaic technologies (like vinyl LPs) and traditional equipment for no other reason than that's the hobby for them. Nobody has issue with that (well, almost nobody). The issue is when folks try to give those traditional analog sources magical powers--that's when the regulars (even those who also enjoy those sources) push back, demanding some data.

Rick "don't complain about being made a patient and then play psychologist" Denney
I'm not telling you how to have fun, that I can see. Just defending my right to have fun they way I want to, defending my POV on it, at least. And yes this place is more tolerable outside of these philosophical debate threads.

I think the differences have less to do with any sort of reasoning or debate, and more to do with the different way people's brains work. I grew up with a father with what would now be diagnosed as Aspergers. Wasn't a lot of point in trying to convince him of grey areas in the world. His opinions were very black and white and the very idea of there being nuance to some things was just..it just wasn't there. Like it was incapable of being processed in his head. Didn't make his ideas wrong, at all, he was just a different person and fascinating in his own unique way. And I'm not saying that's everybody here just an extreme example of being wired in a different way. I went to art and communications school... 100% subjectivity all the time.
 

krabapple

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Notice I'm only holding forth on this here, not on Audiogon, or super best friends or whatever. I understand 99.9% of the world doesn't give a damn about these distinctions, but here we do.

made me laugh!
 

rdenney

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I'm not telling you how to have fun, that I can see. Just defending my right to have fun they way I want to, defending my POV on it, at least. And yes this place is more tolerable outside of these philosophical debate threads.

I think the differences have less to do with any sort of reasoning or debate, and more to do with the different way people's brains work. I grew up with a father with what would now be diagnosed as Aspergers. Wasn't a lot of point in trying to convince him of grey areas in the world. His opinions were very black and white and the very idea of there being nuance to some things was just..it just wasn't there. Like it was incapable of being processed in his head. Didn't make his ideas wrong, at all, he was just a different person and fascinating in his own unique way. And I'm not saying that's everybody here just an extreme example of being wired in a different way. I went to art and communications school... 100% subjectivity all the time.
I spent my first three years in architecture school, so I know what you mean. And when I listen to music, I do it as a musician, not as an audio enthusiast. I can listen to music in the car and be just as moved by it as hearing it at home. But that doesn't mean I'm going to claim that my car stereo system is as good as my home system. I just don't confuse those two objectives (being moved by music and building a good system) in my mind.

But it isn't just that. When I first joined ASR, I made an introductory post titled "I found my engineer's safe place." This is a place where people can come and chat with experts about stuff that actually requires some expertise. Stuff that can be measured, and stuff that can be designed, on purpose. Those who think measurements are inadequate have never been able to tell me how their favorite guru designers actually design. Do they just guess and keep guessing until they happen upon something that tickles their subjective fantasy? I hope not, and I doubt it. Some of them rather cynically disclaim measurements, because they know their own designs don't always measure well. And if they don't measure well, it's for one of two reasons: 1.) they are not as expert as they have portrayed themselves as being, or 2.) they are not actually trying to make stuff that measures well. (Maybe they say they measure stuff nobody else measures, but keep it as a trade secret and won't tell us--I actually wish that were true, but it isn't.) I have no problem with the second reason if they are honest about it. But no--they often declare, or let their sycophant customers do it for them, that for the first time there exists a device that is actually true to the music.

Uh-huh. The inconsistencies are astounding.

As a result of joining in here, I have obtained and learned how to minimally use REW, along with a calibrated test microphone. I have dusted off old test equipment and used it for a significant project that most here would think a waste of effort (restoring a vintage TEAC open-reel deck). I have rearranged my listening area, and replaced just about all of my equipment except my turntable, but I probably would have done that anyway, and the choices I made were far too old to have gotten much airplay here. But what I did learn here (the limit of my hearing, and how to interpret speaker measurements) was applicable to interpreting old tests of vintage gear. I have just this week obtained a new oscilloscope that has more features and works more easily than my vintage model, and I'm thinking of ways to perform some testing, such as what change occurs in the waveform of a Hypex amp when the clipping lights are flashing. Do I need to know that to enjoy the music? Not at all. But learning it scratches an itch on the other side of my brain.

When I venture into, say, Audiokarma, I don't engage these arguments or act as an apologist for ASR. But it's more fun here--the experts know more and listen better. And people here know more about coffee and whisky, too.

Rick "is that what you call the black hole absorbing all fun?" Denney
 

raistlin65

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I think they think hearing is far more discriminate with music and that the things they think they hear can, or are, not measured.
The fact that they can't be proven in AB tests is brushed off by stating those tests are flawed because hearing is not 'designed' for AB but long term.

There are plenty of people looking at measurements but thinking they can't explain everything. In acoustic realm I tend to agree that (by lack of knowledge) I cannot predict exactly how a speakers will sound in my room(s) nor that I can fully predict all aspects of a headphone based on a set of measurements.
Just as I cannot predict how a power amplifier exactly reacts to some 'difficult' speakers. One may be able to predict it could struggle in certain conditions though.
Yep. Maybe relative might be the better term for what some of them believe. It's the whole "the measurements don't tell the whole story."

Although I do think their arguments are cherry-picked to counter objectivism explanations to support their perceptual observations, rather than necessarily always being what they believe in. In other words, measurements don't match up with what they believe in, so they find them unreliable for evaluating audio equipment, and then throw out whatever argument they can to support their belief.
 

raistlin65

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No, I'm perfectly well-versed on scientific reasoning. I just have something called perspective.

But sure, let's put the rigor of the Apollo program on our stereos and then get all smug when somebody decides they can be a bit more relaxed with it even knowing full well the "dire" implications.

Well, if you can't articulate it, then there seems to be a problem. Self-appeals to authority are not a valid argument.
 

L0rdGwyn

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I design and build my own gear, predominantly tube or hybrid tube solid state. I don't make any broad claims about one being better or worse than the other, it's just what I enjoy doing in my spare time.

I measure everything I build to help inform the design, distortion, FR, output Z, square wave analysis, stability testing, etc. Of course the goal is achieve good objective performance within the limitations imposed by the chosen circuit topology. But, anecdotally, I often find what sounds the most resolving / detailed / "hifi" does not always correlate with the best measurements. Whether it is a psychoacoustic illusion created by distortion masking or what, I'm not sure, but it's hard to reconcile. This combination of using measurements as an informative tool but also working in my own subjective evaluation works for me, I'm aware that my own biases are coloring my subjective impressions to some extent, I won't impress my methods upon anyone. I think it's interesting that designers like Nelson Pass go to great lengths to employ both objective measurements into their design as well as subjective listening tests, so to me it seems there is a place for both in designing enjoyable audio gear.

I recently built a tube headphone amplifier for Zach Mehrbach of ZMF Headphones. It's possible that amplifier might make it to his table at future headphone audio shows. If so, and if there are ASR members attending, I would be very interested to have them listen to it and see what they think. I would describe it, subjectively of course, as very resolving and spacious, and that aligns well with what Zach and others have thought of the amplifier. But, like all single-ended tube amplifiers, it has a not insignificant degree of H2 at normal listening volumes. Getting some subjective impressions from ASR members on a no compromises DIY tube amplifier would be interesting I think.

Just $0.02 from a self proclaimed tube guy.
 

raistlin65

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Or they simply don't care about the consequences of getting it wrong as much as you do. That doesn't mean they don't understand the reasoning behind applying a more objective approach.

So thanks for confirming that you did not understand my previous comment about epistemologies.

To be an objectivist is to acknowledge the role that perceptual bias plays in audio evaluation. It doesn't mean one can't choose to base their decision purchases on what pleases them, even if perceptual bias could be influencing that evaluation. Many people on this forum will tell you they have done that.

Now if you deny that perceptual biases could be influencing what you hear, then that is subjectivism.
 

Ingenieur

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Subjectivity gets a bad name from claims like
'power cords make amazing differences'
'Little dots on things improve sound'
Cable lifters
'Power conditioners revealed things I never heard before'
Et al

These claims make people like me distance myself from 'hearing things' which may not be a good thing. I've tried to be more open to that mindset but every time I do someone comes up with 'fuses in my power supply transformed my system' and discussed for 50 pages, II rethink it.

Lol :facepalm:
 
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JohnVF

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So thanks for confirming that you did not understand my previous comment about epistemologies.

To be an objectivist is to acknowledge the role that perceptual bias plays in audio evaluation. It doesn't mean one can't choose to base their decision purchases on what pleases them, even if perceptual bias could be influencing that evaluation. Many people on this forum will tell you they have done that.

Now if you deny that perceptual biases could be influencing what you hear, then that is subjectivism.
Then I guess I'm an objectivist.
 

ahofer

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This is the sort of silliness that audio subjectivism has produced: we must pretend cables are important!

Post (from CEO Alan Shaw) in thread 'Harbeth cable recommendation'
https://www.harbeth.co.uk/usergroup/threads/harbeth-cable-recommendation.80428/post-99255

It is reported that our no-nonsense stance on speaker cables (and possibly other issues) is 'bad for business'. What does that actually mean? Should we be concerned, even intimidated by that? Should we reposition ourselves and toe the party line?

This is what is reported:

Many of our dealers have found themselves having to counter opinions made on HUG especially when statements about speaker stands and cables are discussed as examples. Our dealers sell lots of accessories to go with Harbeth speakers! We suggest that the general answer about this stuff should be our speakers work with a wide variety of products and you should “ask your local dealer!” If we tell them cables don’t matter… the dealer will sell another speaker line that has not taken a stance on such as cables. It’s not that we are trying to mislead consumers if cables do or don’t matter, it’s just that everyone is just trying to do business and we don’t need to make this more difficult – or give the dealers a reason to be upset with us!

I thought that we have made our position as manufacturer absolutely clear on numerous occasions on HUG and when meeting the public: by all means spend whatever you like on accessories because the dealer relies on this crucial income stream. In fact, the more spend the better - it keeps the specialist audio dealer open on the high street.

As this forum clearly says, we do our best to employ Citizen Science in the design of our speakers and the selection of accessories. If you feel that your supplier has applied the same or more Citizen Science and arrived at a repeatable position that some accessory demonstrates sonic superiority under all conditions, then this forum wants to hear about it. But mere hearsay is not what HUG is all about. If we honestly could improve our products and their performance at home by using exotic parts or accessories, given the deep discounts to the trade, why wouldn't we incorporate or recommend those parts. We would be commercially wise to do so.

But I repeat again: the audiophile industry needs consumers to spend-out on audio accessories. We applaud the choices available to consumers, in the same way that we applaud the wide range of footwear and food but do not conflate choice or price with an automatic performance increase. Mere pride of ownership based on cosmetics alone is justification enough to buy - there is no need to kid oneself that the result automatically sounds better and absolutely no requirement to report that on HUG.

The current political environment has made our nerves raw with anxiety. Escaping from that needs a focus on music, not equipment.
 
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