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Master Thread: “Objectivism versus Subjectivism” debate and is there a middle ground?

steve59

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any time a group completely ignores the other group and looks down on it with superiority there's problems and there's members on this forum that thrive in stuffing every audiophile into a box labeled ' priveleged and ignorant' so we can clearly be seen as over the top stupid. I don't know anybody that spends $10k on power cords. Those of us that find soundstage and imaging important disagree with single speaker testing and are just told to read Dr tooles book. Why, so I can be told tonal accuracy is the only thing that really matters? nah. when he starts paying my bills he can decide what I like.
 

Suffolkhifinut

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When you've heard the master tape, had the same tape cut to acetate, played the acetate back in comparison and then heard in comparison a vinyl 12" 45 and then a 33rpm LP cut from this tape at an earlier time, you'd never EVER say that CD vs LP is contentious as long as the mastering engineer hasn't effed it up of course :D I have a Tangerine Dream box (70 - 80) cut and well pressed by Nimbus and again, the upper kHz region's been spiced up just a little compared to numerous CD issues and original dull sounding vinyls I have of these wonderful old albums. Whatever, the Vaughan Williams 6 plus Lark Ascending disc they made sounds sublime for vinyl (Boult conducting I believe) and the tape hiss/venue atmosphere is actually just audible over the vinyl noise floor..
My listening to CDs and vinyl are split 50/50, CDs when mastered well are a joy to listen too. Got Norah Jones ‘Come away with Me ‘ on both vinyl and CD and in this case would agree with you 100%. Hugh Laurie‘s CDs and vinyl are great on both formats in my opinion vinyl shades it. Then look at the cost of the hardware? In my case the cost of vinyl kit is extortionate, even before you compare the cost of both discs. The cartridge on its own cost more than the CD player.
Listening to my CDs makes me question if the nuclear race for higher bit rates is making things any better for digital reproduction.
 

vert

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While I don't like "isms" of any kind, the more I see reviews and debates online, the more it seems to me the emperor of subjectivism's clothes have very few threads left. You wouldn't buy a car or use any technical product that's not been thoroughly engineered and tested and in most cases, such products aren't even allowed to be sold. Because they are leisure products hifi products escape those common sense rules.

Subjectively or aesthetically, I also find the typical subjectivist prose and ramblings, whether by individuals or prominent websites, to be simply unbearable. Little do they seem to know that good writers, even the most artistic, tend to rely on solid facts and documentation. Discourse unbacked by fact begets cognitive unease and dissonance.

A perfect system can be built today for peanuts. I just did, for my desk, with gear tested by Amir, $400 in all, and wouldn't change a thing: everything sounds beautiful, and I haven't even done any room correction. ASR has convinced me that linear gear + DSP for correction (speakers/headphones and room) is the only magical formula. Amir, with a few others, have made huge contributions, putting "objectivism" front and center. I love this site and community.
 

Pdxwayne

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While I don't like "isms" of any kind, the more I see reviews and debates online, the more it seems to me the emperor of subjectivism's clothes have very few threads left. You wouldn't buy a car or use any technical product that's not been thoroughly engineered and tested and in most cases, such products aren't even allowed to be sold. Because they are leisure products hifi products escape those common sense rules.

Subjectively or aesthetically, I also find the typical subjectivist prose and ramblings, whether by individuals or prominent websites, to be simply unbearable. Little do they seem to know that good writers, even the most artistic, tend to rely on solid facts and documentation. Discourse unbacked by fact begets cognitive unease and dissonance.

A perfect system can be built today for peanuts. I just did, for my desk, with gear tested by Amir, $400 in all, and wouldn't change a thing: everything sounds beautiful, and I haven't even done any room correction. ASR has convinced me that linear gear + DSP for correction (speakers/headphones and room) is the only magical formula. Amir, with a few others, have made huge contributions, putting "objectivism" front and center. I love this site and community.
Please explain your chain and how it can perfectly play all those songs in BASS! thread. Can your system produce freq range that is at least flat to 30hz, and reproduce it cleanly at 90db sound level?

For example, can it perfectly reproduce those ~30hz tones in
 

JP

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levimax

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Honest question regarding "imaging"... what exactly is "good imaging" vs "bad imaging"? I have a "stereophile test CD" where someone walks around inside a big church and you can hear the footsteps and echo and there are enough cues to get some "depth" as well as "side to side" imaging. Is the imaging "better' if it is easier to hear the "depth".... is "more depth" better than "less depth"? I am very skeptical about different amps imaging any different unless they are broken but it does seem to me that LP's tend to have a "wider" presentation despite <30 dB channel separation which would lead me to believe that different imaging is most likely to be caused by distortion artifacts rather than more accurate reproduction of the source.
 

JP

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...it does seem to me that LP's tend to have a "wider" presentation despite <30 dB channel separation which would lead me to believe that different imaging is most likely to be caused by distortion artifacts rather than more accurate reproduction of the source.

I believe @Frank Dernie has commented on that in the past.
 

Suffolkhifinut

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Which versions?
The CD‘s Capitol Records serial number is 7243 538609 2 9 year 2002. The vinyl went with a load of CDs and vinyl to the YMCA Charity Shop in a mass clear out. With the lot of them if I couldn’t remember the last time it was played it went. As I said much preferred the CD.
 

JP

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The CD‘s Capitol Records serial number is 7243 538609 2 9 year 2002. The vinyl went with a load of CDs and vinyl to the YMCA Charity Shop in a mass clear out. With the lot of them if I couldn’t remember the last time it was played it went. As I said much preferred the CD.

I've always preferred the Analogue Productions mastering of that title.
 

vert

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Please explain your chain and how it can perfectly play all those songs in BASS! thread. Can your system produce freq range that is at least flat to 30hz, and reproduce it cleanly at 90db sound level?

For example, can it perfectly reproduce those ~30hz tones in
Errr, it's a humble chain, LOL. On some others sites, I would feel embarrassed. I was shouted down a couple of times, by guys boasting of their $20k systems, how dare I make such claims, etc. ... but not here, right ? I bought a pair of KRK Rokit 5 Gen 4s for $300 (local), tested by Amir ealier this year. It got the second-to-best Panther, on account of its power limitations. As well, a couple of table stands ($70). I also got a Motu M2 but it's going back, as it doesn't bring anything more than the SMSL Sanskrit II DAC ($100) I already had (no hum issues, preamp works great). Will replace it with a Topping L30 probably (still need a headphones out). PC is a recent Lenovo laptop, running Audirvana, Foobar or Internet radio. And that's it.

As to BASS, well to be honest it's probably not quite there, though plenty satisfying to my ears. Freq response is stated at 43 Hz for lows on those speakers. I'll see what room correction can do in that respect. I'll see how well I can tune them, I'm only familiar with easy EQ methods (i.e Audyssey, or copying other people's presets). As it is though, it's really fine. Anything more will be the cherry on the cake. I don't listen to a lot of bass heavy stuff. People will often add a sub to speakers with a 5" driver, I'm not sure I'll go that far, but who knows.
 

antennaguru

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Errr, it's a humble chain, LOL. On some others sites, I would feel embarrassed. I was shouted down a couple of times, by guys boasting of their $20k systems, how dare I make such claims, etc. ... but not here, right ? I bought a pair of KRK Rokit 5 Gen 4s for $300 (local), tested by Amir ealier this year. It got the second-to-best Panther, on account of its power limitations. As well, a couple of table stands ($70). I also got a Motu M2 but it's going back, as it doesn't bring anything more than the SMSL Sanskrit II DAC ($100) I already had (no hum issues, preamp works great). Will replace it with a Topping L30 probably (still need a headphones out). PC is a recent Lenovo laptop, running Audirvana, Foobar or Internet radio. And that's it.

As to BASS, well to be honest it's probably not quite there, though plenty satisfying to my ears. Freq response is stated at 43 Hz for lows on those speakers. I'll see what room correction can do in that respect. I'll see how well I can tune them, I'm only familiar with easy EQ methods (i.e Audyssey, or copying other people's presets). As it is though, it's really fine. Anything more will be the cherry on the cake. I don't listen to a lot of bass heavy stuff. People will often add a sub to speakers with a 5" driver, I'm not sure I'll go that far, but who knows.
Is this your main system, or a desktop system while you're working?
 

Trell

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any time a group completely ignores the other group and looks down on it with superiority there's problems and there's members on this forum that thrive in stuffing every audiophile into a box labeled ' priveleged and ignorant' so we can clearly be seen as over the top stupid. I don't know anybody that spends $10k on power cords. Those of us that find soundstage and imaging important disagree with single speaker testing and are just told to read Dr tooles book. Why, so I can be told tonal accuracy is the only thing that really matters? nah. when he starts paying my bills he can decide what I like.

You mean like when medical doctors look down on homeopaths and other quacks?

That is entirely warranted.
 

antennaguru

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You mean like when medical doctors look down on homeopaths and other quacks?

That is entirely warranted.
I know a lot of Medical Doctors as close friends, and they are the first to admit they don't know everything, didn't learn everything in school, and are still learning.
 

Trell

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I know a lot of Medical Doctors as close friends, and they are the first to admit they don't know everything, didn't learn everything in school, and are still learning.

If that is the view your close medical doctor friends have on homeopathy and other quacks they are professionally incompetent and should have their license revoked before they harm more people.
 

BDWoody

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I know a lot of Medical Doctors as close friends, and they are the first to admit they don't know everything, didn't learn everything in school, and are still learning.

So, you are saying they feel a homeopath is just as good a choice as an MD?

They wouldn't challenge the homeopath's bullshit if he posted on a medical forum?

The MD's I know refer to it as a bad joke.
 

Trell

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So, you are saying they feel a homeopath is just as good a choice as an MD?

They wouldn't challenge the homeopath's bullshit if he posted on a medical forum?

The MD's I know refer to it as a bad joke.

In several EU member countries one can get reimbursement for homeopathic “treatment” from the public health care, but that is phased out or soon to be so in most countries.

There are enough medical doctors in EU to have their own organization but they should loose their license along with other quacks, like anti-vaccers.

Many years of science based education and that is what they learned. :rolleyes:

 

antennaguru

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So, you are saying they feel a homeopath is just as good a choice as an MD?

They wouldn't challenge the homeopath's bullshit if he posted on a medical forum?

The MD's I know refer to it as a bad joke.
Now YOU’RE putting words in my mouth. That is NOT what I said. Maybe you need to go back and read what I said again.

Besides I’m probably the only one here with my doctorate in EE and I don’t look down on anyone here.
 

Trell

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Now YOU’RE putting words in my mouth. That is NOT what I said. Maybe you need to go back and read what I said again.

Besides I’m probably the only one here with my doctorate in EE and I don’t look down on anyone here.

His interpretation of your reply is the most reasonable one. I’ve the same view.

Obviously you missed out on the theory and philosophy of science classes when you took your claimed doctorate.
 

JRS

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I know a lot of Medical Doctors as close friends, and they are the first to admit they don't know everything, didn't learn everything in school, and are still learning.
As they should. There is much to learn, but never have I seen a dose response curve that showed a response at zero dose, apart from placebo effect. And so far as we are all in agreement that there is no actual medicine, I don't have a problem hawking "drugs" that have nano- or femtomolar concentrations of the "active" ingredient. The effect of any pharmaceutical is almost always dependent on the drug acting at the molecular level on various receptors or by modulating the activity of various enzymes. Other medicines exist but seldom require a prescription.
 
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