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Master Thread: “Objectivism versus Subjectivism” debate and is there a middle ground?
- Thread starter amirm
- Start date
You should watch the whole thing. Tim Minchin is great.
EDIT - and just in case, because you seem a little peeved, I am in no way hinting that you are anything like the Storm character. It's just the poem seemed to fit the conversation quite well.
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Cant stand it! Sat through a John Cage 4'33 performance with my asthmatic friend. It was real breathy.Live music must really grate your gears.
At close to 1000 posts, not surprising this one has gone on a sabbatical.
Going to give it a short break and when it comes back, hopefully can return in a better form!
Going to give it a short break and when it comes back, hopefully can return in a better form!
Mr. 2tec pushes the same line on Hydrogenaudio, of all places. He's been told all this already.
Unfortunately I believe what you are railing against is called capitalism.
You don't have to get as extreme as the cosmetic industry to find an industry rife with misinformation and charlatans. That shiny new Corvette won't make you younger or cooler, those new shoes, that watch, the...
It is all the same. Marketers will tell you that their (fill in the blank) will make you thinner, happier, and more successful that the one their competition is offering. The hi-fi industry is hardly a leader in this.
I understand your point but for the other products you mentioned at least they "do something real and measurable" i.e. go faster, or cover up wrinkles better. For many Hi-Fi products like cables or cable lifters they really don't do anything at all.
Jimster480
Major Contributor
Right, I was going to say exactly this. The new Corvette is definitely faster than the older one, the ZR1X is faster than most every other car ever produced (for Production). It might be expensive compared to Corvettes of the Yesteryear but it does have a measurably better performance figure in basically every way. It even gets pretty good gas mileage.
But a $50000 power cable doesn't do anything, neither does a $1000 one. Same with the signal cables and "vibration dampeners" and other snake-oil products.
The audio industry has more of those than any other industry I have personally seen.
Selling cheap products and making outrageous claims is one and of the market, and selling luxury products without a good price/performance ratio is the other end of a market... but selling products that have no improvement for a huge price (while claiming they do have a huge improvement) is a scam/fraudulent market.
No they really don't. That wing on the back of the car makes it objectively slower and use more fuel at legal highway speeds. The anti-aging creams do not do what they are advertised.
Cables usually still pass audio, just as the wing still allows the car to propel itself.
xnor
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Every product category should have communities or impartial entities that verify product claims in an objective manner and point out when companies' claims are wrong, misleading or straight up woo-woo.
Seriously, who are these people that oppose such genuinely good efforts?
Seriously, who are these people that oppose such genuinely good efforts?
Jimster480
Major Contributor
The wing provides downforce which allows the car to have traction at faster speeds and put down more power to the floor through the tires. It also allows for stability at high speed in corners.
A regular Corvette gets 30MPG highway, the ZR1 gets like 24MPG due to the large wing, which is still more than many other cars... but it is also the best gas mileage of any 1000+HP car. So yes, these are all valid marketing claims that make things better. Comparing a Corvette to a 100hp Corolla that can't even get out of its own way isn't a valid comparison, because the ZR1X for example goes to 100mph faster than the Corolla hits 35mph. These are performance based measurements, where you are paying more money for more performance.
The $10000+ audio cable "carrying audio" doesn't mean that you aren't getting scammed because it "carries audio" the same way that a $3-20 cable "carries audio".
One is a scam, the other is marketing for legitimately better performance.
Hence my saying at legal highway speeds. Aerodynamics is a real science, no argument, but the wing on that Corvette is there to sell cars more than it is to improve track time which it will undoubtedly do for the small number of cars that spend much time on the track.
My point is that in all cases it is caveat emptor. It is up to us to know what is important for each of us.
Jimster480
Major Contributor
Right, but they are not selling gas mileage. They are selling performance. The wing is there for performance. They would not be able to achieve the cornering performance, the track performance, the lateral grip. None of that would be possible without installing the wing. It's just the same if you buy a Camaro 1LE, right? These wings are installed from the factory on factory track cars. A person who buys a ZR1 or a ZR1X is buying the most track focused Corvette built. The lower end model of a track car is the Z06; that has a much smaller wing with much less power. If you buy a base model Corvette or a base model Camaro, even an SS, it does not have a large wing. The wing is not there for styling. And in fact, the cars will lose both gas mileage and everyday performance by installing a large wing. That's why those cars don't have it.
However if you are buying the pure track version, then you are getting the wing that allows it to be a track version. So the marketing is spot on with what they are actually delivering. If you choose to buy a track car and drive it on the street, that's your own prerogative. However, it has nothing to do with the product, nor how it is marketed.
In the case of audio cables, they are there to lie to people about what they are delivering to scam people out of money for false performance that they do not provide. And there are many other audio products that also have similar marketing lying to the customer about audio quality that does not exist that cannot be measured. Therefore, it is not in any way the same thing as performance cars having things like wings or lightweight wheels or carbon tubs, etc.
If the Corvette ZR1 was the same performance as a Corvette base model, it would not sell. If they put a giant wing on the base model Corvette and tried to claim it was a track model, then it would not sell. That is what we are discussing here. The difference between lies and fakery versus real-world measurable results.
This website does the same thing with audio products that many reviewers do with cars. They measure the performance and see whether or not the manufacturer is telling the truth and how close the real world gets to the manufacturer's claims. Independent testing is what is required to keep manufacturers honest. These who are selling scams should be demeaned and ridiculed as they are lying. The same thing that happens to a car company or an electronics company when they come out with a product with claims of performance and those claims are not met.
I'll send you a direct message and we can continue there.
As to the subtitle of this thread, I do think there is a valuable middle ground, though finding and discussing that middle ground is a bit elusive.
RexrothPigeon
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This is untrue unless you live in some (libertarian?) place that has no fraud laws on the books, idk somalia or that bear town in New Hampshire or something
The bad part is that companies are selling expensive lies and deceit to your friend - bringing joy he could've had without that, but they've been telling their lies for years and decades, he believes them, and THAT is why he "needs" these silly cables now for getting that joy.
I dunno about you, but part of being a friend for me means stepping in when you see your buddy falling victim to a fraud, protect your friend, and bash the fraudster.
I have had that conversation with friends who are into expensive cables. I am greeted like the friend trying to take the booze away from a drunk friend. They may know you are right, but they do not want to hear it.
AndyBell
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Once they’ve bought it and have ‘heard’ (hallucinated) how much better it (whatever they’ve bought) sounds, there’s little chance of changing their minds.
If I had a friend who was considering investing in snake oil, I’d try to talk him out of it. But after he’s succumbed, I’d probably leave him to it.
Not because I don’t care. But because I estimate the probability of changing his mind to be far less than that of damaging the friendship by trying to convince him.
As the late Scott Adams wrote, we live in a world where facts often don’t matter, especially when someone’s cognitive biases have already ‘won’ the argument…
RexrothPigeon
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"Bob's wife is cheating on him? Who cares, as long as he doesn't know!"
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