Master Thread: “Objectivism versus Subjectivism” debate and is there a middle ground?

[2tec]

What is most evident about this discussion is how people will defend thier perspective at any cost. An instrument can provide an 'objective' result but how that result is used depends upon the perspective of the user. The fact is we can measure physical phenomena and we can measure physical and psychological responses and the science tells us the placebo effect is real. If some people choose to use psycology in order to enhance thier expereince, is it any wonder that those with limited imaginations, who don't use this effect, don't understand it and are dismissive of it?

 

[RexrothPigeon]

What is most evident about this discussion is how people will defend thier perspective at any cost. An instrument can provide an 'objective' result but how that result is used depends upon the perspective of the user. The fact is we can measure physical phenomena and we can measure physical and psychological responses and the science tells us the placebo effect is real. If some people choose to use psycology in order to enhance thier expereince, is it any wonder that those with limited imaginations, who don't use this effect, don't understand it and are dismissive of it?

No, we understand it and are dismissive of their endless baseless claims that it is actually superior because [insert snake oil recipe]

 

[ahofer]

What is most evident about this discussion is how people will defend thier perspective at any cost. An instrument can provide an 'objective' result but how that result is used depends upon the perspective of the user. The fact is we can measure physical phenomena and we can measure physical and psychological responses and the science tells us the placebo effect is real. If some people choose to use psycology in order to enhance thier expereince, is it any wonder that those with limited imaginations, who don't use this effect, don't understand it and are dismissive of it?

What’s more disturbing is that many of us who insist on being ‘evidence-based’ in one domain, will completely abandon it in another. This should give us all pause about the feasibility of broadly applied rationality. One need look no further than the investing thread here, but I see it with, for instance, doctors all the time. They’ll be careful and measured with medical conclusions, but just get one going on investing or economics. We truly have to train and re-train ourselves to be rigorous, because it is cognitively (and, I think, emotionally) expensive.

And then there’s the somewhat more subtle phenomenon when the science is less settled-we simply pick and choose the evidence and definitions selectively to defend our predetermined conclusion. Any conversation on the limits of socialism/capitalism, the extent and implications of global warming, or any range of public policies with significant trade-offs will reveal this.

 

[voodooless]

If some people choose to use psycology in order to enhance thier expereince, is it any wonder that those with limited imaginations, who don't use this effect, don't understand it and are dismissive of it?

But this isn’t what is happening, is it? People don’t choose, and are not aware of what is going on on. No single product is sold with the story that it is only a psychological effect. There is always some bogus pseudo technical explanation for the apparent improvement in sound quality.

 

[antcollinet]

If some people choose to use psycology in order to enhance thier expereince,

That is not how it works though.

 

[AndyBell]

That is not how it works though.

The late Scott Adams wrote a book ‘Reframe Your Brain’ where he describes how we can mould our thinking to improve our lives. I usually like his stuff, but the kind of self-hypnosis he advocates, saying it didn’t matter if the reframe was true or not, didn’t appeal to me.

So yes, I suppose we could convince ourselves that music sounds better when wearing yellow (or whatever) but that seems deluded to me.

At least a yellow shirt is cheaper than audiophile speaker cables. Although someone may now read this and market an audiophile shirt!

 

[Petrushka]

The late Scott Adams wrote a book ‘Reframe Your Brain’ where he describes how we can mould our thinking to improve our lives. I usually like his stuff, but the kind of self-hypnosis he advocates, saying it didn’t matter if the reframe was true or not, didn’t appeal to me.

So yes, I suppose we could convince ourselves that music sounds better when wearing yellow (or whatever) but that seems deluded to me.

At least a yellow shirt is cheaper than audiophile speaker cables. Although someone may now read this and market an audiophile shirt!

Banana colored shirt.

 

[Jimster480]

I was asked my view of Alternative Medicine. I told him there is no such thing as "alternative" vs. "conventional" medicine, there is only "evidence based" and "non evidence based" medicine. If we found evidence that acupuncture cures cancer, then I would be prescribing it.

Quite often, an intervention makes a measurable difference even if the patient does not feel better. For example, lowering a patient's blood pressure or cholesterol won't make them feel any different. However, what does make them feel better is if I listen to them and take their concerns seriously, even if I can't do anything about it. I kid you not, this effect is very real and it is very strong. I could give them placebo and their blood pressure would still go down if I was convincing enough.

It's the same with audio. We can measure differences, but we may not hear them. And despite being an objectivist, I sometimes hear things that are not there. Or I might convince myself that I can hear something because I can measure it. These are all pitfalls to avoid!

This is a bad take. There is alot of alternative medicine, especially in regards to vitamins and herbs from Chinese remedies.
Acupuncture is a whole other thing and I personally don't have any experience with it, but I haven't heard of anyone being cured specifically from acupuncture alone.
However many things managed by pharmaceuticals today can be managed or even cured by herbs and other organic compounds which the western system refuses to acknowledge today because it would hurt their profit margins.
Audio science in a way works like this but in reverse, because many brands refuse to acknowledge sonic performance measurements so they can sell stuff they think "sounds good" and when compared side by side, there ends up being no difference or their stuff being worse.

 

[voodooless]

Audio science in a way works like this but in reverse, because many brands refuse to acknowledge sonic performance measurements so they can sell stuff they think "sounds good" and when compared side by side, there ends up being no difference or their stuff being worse.

This is exactly how medical quackery works…

 

[antcollinet]

This is a bad take. There is alot of alternative medicine, especially in regards to vitamins and herbs from Chinese remedies.
Acupuncture is a whole other thing and I personally don't have any experience with it, but I haven't heard of anyone being cured specifically from acupuncture alone.
However many things managed by pharmaceuticals today can be managed or even cured by herbs and other organic compounds which the western system refuses to acknowledge today because it would hurt their profit margins.
Audio science in a way works like this but in reverse, because many brands refuse to acknowledge sonic performance measurements so they can sell stuff they think "sounds good" and when compared side by side, there ends up being no difference or their stuff being worse.

There is always a chance to quote Tim Minchin's beat poem "Storm"

"Pharmaceutical companies are the enemy
They promote drug dependency
At the cost of the natural remedies
That are all our bodies need
They are immoral and driven by greed
Why take drugs
When herbs can solve it?
Why use chemicals
When homeopathic solvents
Can resolve it?
I think it's time we all return to live
With natural medical alternatives."

And try as I like
A small crack appears
In my diplomacy dyke.
"By definition," I begin
"Alternative Medicine," I continue
"Has either not been proved to work
Or been proved not to work
Do you know what they call alternative medicine
That's been proved to work?
Medicine."

"So you don't believe
In any natural remedies?"

"On the contrary, Storm; actually:
Before I came to tea
I took a remedy
Derived from the bark of a willow tree
A painkiller that's virtually side-effect free
It's got a weird name
Darling, what was it again?
Maspirin?
Baspirin?
Oh yes, aspirin!
Which I paid about a buck for
Down at the local drugstore."

 

[oleg87]

What is most evident about this discussion is how people will defend thier perspective at any cost. An instrument can provide an 'objective' result but how that result is used depends upon the perspective of the user. The fact is we can measure physical phenomena and we can measure physical and psychological responses and the science tells us the placebo effect is real. If some people choose to use psycology in order to enhance thier expereince, is it any wonder that those with limited imaginations, who don't use this effect, don't understand it and are dismissive of it?

My imagination works as well as any subjectivist. But once I understand a piece of equipment provides no real difference, the equipment becomes uninteresting to me as it is plainly only tangentially related to what I percieve. If "audio quality" is in large part a product of state of mind, it seems to me there are more interesting ways of engaging with that reality than consumerism.

 

[Mr. Widget]

The fact is we can measure physical phenomena and we can measure physical and psychological responses and the science tells us the placebo effect is real.

For audio professionals it is a different story, but for most of us sound reproduction in our homes is a hobby. If the golden ratio magic cable makes the system sound better due to the placebo effect (sighted bias and all) is that such a terrible thing?

Isn't the purpose of the home audio reproduction system to bring us joy? I use cheap wires because they satisfy me, but if my friend enjoys his system more because he is convinced that a certain cable or DAC chip sounds better than another, so what?

 

[solderdude]

The thing is though that the people who hear improvements with whatever snakeoil are very verbal and write articles or post things like 'this or that' makes the sound so much better and is convincing others to fork out a lot of money (usually) with the 'promise' that it will give audible improvements then it may persuade people to buy stuff they don't need.
When the placebo works for them too (and likely it will as they are usually human) and it is worth it to them then that is not much of an issue.
The thing is though that most of the snake-oil does absolutely nothing in reality and they are paying good money for a dream ... which only benefits the snakeoil vendors.

People should at least be told that they are buying an audio illusion, no matter how real it appears it is their imagination, just an illusion,

 

[Mr. Widget]

People should at least be told that they are buying an audio illusion, no matter how real it appears it is their imagination, just an illusion,

100%

But beating them up for it as so often happens by the wise and informed does no one favors.

 

[antcollinet]

is that such a terrible thing?

The bias effect doesn't last, beyond the next review of the latest and greatest and FOMO takes over again.

 

[levimax]

Derived from the bark of a willow tree
A painkiller that's virtually side-effect free
It's got a weird name
Darling, what was it again?
Maspirin?
Baspirin?
Oh yes, aspirin!

Aspirin actually has side effects (some potentially deadly) and if it was newly invented / discovered today would not be approved for over the counter sales and would require a prescription.

 

[voodooless]

so what?

A whole industry abuses consumers and does their utmost best to misinform them into buying any nonsense product under the guise of “it brings you joy, doesn’t it”.

 

[Jimster480]

There is always a chance to quote Tim Minchin's beat poem "Storm"

Not sure what this trash is.

This is exactly how medical quackery works…

It actually isn't.
Anyone who takes time to look can see that the medical system is a fragile collective of failure built on lies.
This is why places with more of this diseased system have worse health while people live just fine in other parts of the world on 1/100000 of the budget because they are not directly poisoned.
If the Medical system was what it claims to be, then drug companies wouldn't need immunity or shielding from lawsuits, they wouldn't need to mention 500 side effects in every commercial and 3/4th of drugs wouldn't need to be pulled from the shelves within 18 months of release.

The audio world doesn't work that way and the science behind sound is far more stable than the fragility of the medical world.

A whole industry abuses consumers and does their utmost best to misinform them into buying any nonsense product under the guise of “it brings you joy, doesn’t it”.

I think all industries do this today to an extent because technology has gotten "too good" in the sense that most people don't need any forms of newer technology. So they have to sell you the idea to purchase it based on feelings.

 

[Newman]

Hot take: I listen to so much clinical and transparent gear so often that I use tubes and poorly measured devices as palette cleansers

Live music must really grate your gears.

 

[Jimster480]

Live music must really grate your gears.

Live music is nice if they are playing instruments with minimal amplification. Otherwise most live music sounds like complete trash. I would rather watch the venues at home, they sound better.