Master Thread: “Objectivism versus Subjectivism” debate and is there a middle ground?

[voodooless]

That doesnt mean however that I dont trust my ears. I believe if we tell people that what they hear is irrelevant this entire website is obsolete.

Buying a snakeoil setup based on imagination is just as futile as buying something that objectively measures better if your hearing is taken out of the equation and treated like an RNG diceroll. If you dont think your hearing can distinguish between good and bad then there is no point in deciding on a good or bad setup given your hearing is the only instrument consuming it.

You’re not getting it. Your ears are not the things deciding what is good or bad! Your brain is, and hearing is only one of a multitude of inputs that are used, and you have zero control over which of those inputs is dominant.

 

[meesbaker]

I hear you , then let me rephrase:
If you do not give any relevance to your own perception than there is also no relevance in the quality of your setup.

 

[egellings]

It's possible that you might prefer the sound of a piece of equipment that measures less well rather than a better measuring piece. Sometimes, differences in measured results are so small that hearing a difference would not be possible. Some program material may also mask measurable sonic differences, too.

 

[meesbaker]

Right and in that case you have to ask yourself to what degree the accuracy is actually important.

The thing with home entertainment is that the purchase you make serves no other purpose than being perceived.

Lets say for example that you plan to buy a car and the things that are most important to you are fast acceleration and yet decent gas mileage.

Test driving or looking at the cars might give you a feeling of what is faster or more efficient, but you are better off trusting measured facts from a spec sheet.

The difference here is that your car has a purpose other than satisfying your perception, it transports you from A to B. How well that works in regards to the 2 stats you cared about will become evident in your monthly fuel payments and how long you need for your travels.

With a hifi setup there is no physical use in producing accurate or high quality sound other than you perceiving it. So if you cant find a way to combine your knowledge with what you hear you might as well buy whatever looks best or feels best in the moment because you dont trust your judgment to give any relevant results anyway.

 

[Petrushka]

Right and in that case you have to ask yourself to what degree the accuracy is actually important.

The thing with home entertainment is that the purchase you make serves no other purpose than being perceived.

Lets say for example that you plan to buy a car and the things that are most important to you are fast acceleration and yet decent gas mileage.

Test driving or looking at the cars might give you a feeling of what is faster or more efficient, but you are better off trusting measured facts from a spec sheet.

The difference here is that your car has a purpose other than satisfying your perception, it transports you from A to B. How well that works in regards to the 2 stats you cared about will become evident in your monthly fuel payments and how long you need for your travels.

With a hifi setup there is no physical use in producing accurate or high quality sound other than you perceiving it. So if you cant find a way to combine your knowledge with what you hear you might as well buy whatever looks best or feels best in the moment because you dont trust your judgment to give any relevant results anyway.

You will never be able to test everything in your designated room.

 

[voodooless]

With a hifi setup there is no physical use in producing accurate or high quality sound other than you perceiving it. So if you cant find a way to combine your knowledge with what you hear you might as well buy whatever looks best or feels best in the moment because you dont trust your judgment to give any relevant results anyway.

With regards to electronics, this is largely the case: most of it is transparent, so you can buy whatever suits your other needs best. That be looks, features, objective performance… whatever you like.

As to speakers, that is another matter. Here, preference is obviously also an important subject. And with measurements, you can find out why you prefer certain things, and then can apply that knowledge to find similar or better products to fulfill those preferences best.

I hear you , then let me rephrase:
If you do not give any relevance to your own perception than there is also no relevance in the quality of your setup.

I never said to ignore your perception. You should just be aware that some things that you perceive are just constructs made up by your brain from countless clues. They cloud your judgement, and worse, those clues might be different from one moment to another. So they are not reliable. So always caution non controlled listening.

 

[meesbaker]

With regards to electronics, this is largely the case: most of it is transparent, so you can buy whatever suits your other needs best. That be looks, features, objective performance… whatever you like.

As to speakers, that is another matter. Here, preference is obviously also an important subject. And with measurements, you can find out why you prefer certain things, and then can apply that knowledge to find similar or better products to fulfill those preferences best.


I never said to ignore your perception. You should just be aware that some things that you perceive are just constructs made up by your brain from countless clues. They cloud your judgement, and worse, those clues might be different from one moment to another. So they are not reliable. So always caution non controlled listening.

I agree with everything you say, maybe I find it difficult to express what I mean. I've read a lot of threads here where peoples subjective experience instantly is dismissed and they are told to be hallucinating.

My approach will always be to understand that yes, measurements are important because a human opinion is unreliable especially like you say, since it can feel different even just in different days/times in your lifes hearing the same setup.

But I will always start saying hey Im hearing clear differences - repeatedly in extrnsive testing - I will now be curious as to where they come from and try to study the physical facts for evidence of what Im hearing vs oh Im just insane.

I know for example that my dads stereo sounds way better for music than his avr and nobody will ever be able to gaslight me into denying that. Me and him we both noticed it independantly on every avr he had and without expecting bad performance from them.

Now what the reason is - I dont know but I know that it is true so I know there would be a measurable explanation. It could be simply the power, he had very high end speakers and the stereo amp hits 235W into 4 ohm loads , so possibly average avrs just underdrive the speakers. Maybe - the amp being a vintage amp - it could also be just that it has a perceptible coloration of the sound distortion or w/e that we both just happen to enjoy from hearing this amp for so many years of listening to music.

I was positively surprised that most avrs performing poor is also represented in the measurements here. I do think however that what I experienced has more reasons than just DAC performance - I doubt that a 70-80 vs 90-110 sinad is as audible as our avr not bringing it.

To complete the story I dont live there anymore but the last avr my dad got had preouts to tie the stereo in with the rest of the setup and it is until today the best sound setup that I've heard.
Hes using a 2010 pioneer avr and the stereo is a late 80s Onkyo Integra Analog amplifier running German Canton towers. Absolute beast of a sound, if you dare to bring that volume knob anywhere near the 50% mark its like the ceiling comes down.

 

[voodooless]

I agree with everything you say, maybe I find it difficult to express what I mean. I've read a lot of threads here where peoples subjective experience instantly is dismissed and they are told to be hallucinating.

Well, because experience shows that in the vast majority of cases, that is in fact what is going on.

But I will always start saying hey Im hearing clear differences - repeatedly in extrnsive testing - I will now be curious as to where they come from and try to study the physical facts for evidence of what Im hearing vs oh Im just insane.

Yet:

I know for example that my dads stereo sounds way better for music than his avr and nobody will ever be able to gaslight me into denying that. Me and him we both noticed it independantly on every avr he had and without expecting bad performance from them.

Now what the reason is - I dont know but I know that it is true so I know there would be a measurable explanation. It could be simply the power, he had very high end speakers and the stereo amp hits 235W into 4 ohm loads , so possibly average avrs just underdrive the speakers. Maybe - the amp being a vintage amp - it could also be just that it has a perceptible coloration of the sound distortion or w/e that we both just happen to enjoy from hearing this amp for so many years of listening to music.

I was positively surprised that most avrs performing poor is also represented in the measurements here. I do think however that what I experienced has more reasons than just DAC performance - I doubt that a 70-80 vs 90-110 sinad is as audible as our avr not bringing it.

To complete the story I dont live there anymore but the last avr my dad got had preouts to tie the stereo in with the rest of the setup and it is until today the best sound setup that I've heard.
Hes using a 2010 pioneer avr and the stereo is a late 80s Onkyo Integra Analog amplifier running German Canton towers. Absolute beast of a sound, if you dare to bring that volume knob anywhere near the 50% mark its like the ceiling comes down.

You actually weren't curious enough to ever find out...

 

[meesbaker]

True but I also wouldnt have known how. I got into this whole thing now - years after moving out. Wish I could send it and have amir test it haha Id be most curious. If I look at what little information is available online about the 2 items I assume the power is the key. The cantons are 4 ohm speakers and from what I can gather most lower end amps struggle with that.

 

[Keith_W]

I agree with everything you say, maybe I find it difficult to express what I mean. I've read a lot of threads here where peoples subjective experience instantly is dismissed and they are told to be hallucinating.

Not always. When someone says "I added a subwoofer and my bass sounds bloated!" I believe them. Or if somebody complains that their stereo imaging is pulled to the left or right. Or if they hear stuttering or crackling. It is rare that subjective impressions like these are products of the imagination.

OTOH when somebody says that an intervention has "widened the soundstage" or "improved the clarity" or "tightened the bass", I am a bit more sceptical. Yes, it is possible that some interventions might improve clarity, e.g. if you reduce driver or room ringing. Some might widen the soundstage, e.g. by changing speaker toe-in. I know from my own experience that poorly designed DSP filters can sound muddy, even with the same frequency response. So I look to see whether the intervention has a plausible mechanism for producing that improvement. If the intervention is something that is known not to make any difference (e.g. one cable or another, or one DAC or another), I dismiss it. If the intervention is plausible, then it is worth investigating.

In the past, I would sometimes be very confident that I could hear something, even though I couldn't measure it. The reason would always be either (1) I did not know where to look, or (2) I needed to do a special measurement. For example, there is no question in my mind that some speakers sound more "dynamic" than others, and for a long time I did not know why. I could not see the answer in any of my measurements. But now I know - it's because loudspeakers are nonlinear devices, especially when played back at different volumes. Sine wave sweeps are taken at a constant volume, but music is a mixture of loud and soft. So I needed to do a special measurement, i.e. measure the frequency response at different SPL's and compare them.

 

[Geert]

I've read a lot of threads here where peoples subjective experience instantly is dismissed and they are told to be hallucinating.

ASR only dismisses subjective experiences when they are uncontrolled (not blind, no level matching, no comparison between 2 stimuli with multiple trails in a short time span and so on), and someone wants to sell these observations as truth.

 

[egellings]

With regards to electronics, this is largely the case: most of it is transparent, so you can buy whatever suits your other needs best. That be looks, features, objective performance… whatever you like.

As to speakers, that is another matter. Here, preference is obviously also an important subject. And with measurements, you can find out why you prefer certain things, and then can apply that knowledge to find similar or better products to fulfill those preferences best.


I never said to ignore your perception. You should just be aware that some things that you perceive are just constructs made up by your brain from countless clues. They cloud your judgement, and worse, those clues might be different from one moment to another. So they are not reliable. So always caution non controlled listening.

Electronics are not affected by the room's sound characteristics. Speakers are. The same speaker model may sound different in different rooms, whereas the electronics sound quality will not vary with room differences.

 

[Jimster480]

Im pretty new so I dont have the extensive knowledge as some others , I did a lot if reading here though and I have a lot of hands on experience with hifi setups, stereo, avr , also music equipment , guitar amps , recording deviced etc etc....


Heres just my 2 cents.

Numbers dont lie and measurements are facts so yes, I do 100% believe in the ability to fully quantify audio scientifically and objectively.

That doesnt mean however that I dont trust my ears. I believe if we tell people that what they hear is irrelevant this entire website is obsolete.

Buying a snakeoil setup based on imagination is just as futile as buying something that objectively measures better if your hearing is taken out of the equation and treated like an RNG diceroll. If you dont think your hearing can distinguish between good and bad then there is no point in deciding on a good or bad setup given your hearing is the only instrument consuming it.

The way I look at it is more so that if I hear differences I want to use the science to explain what it is - versus having a fight where one or the other is true.

Right, so your statement is contradicting in every way, because either you are able to understand that the measurements correlate to what you would listen to, or you're not. So you cannot say that something which doesn't measure well, but you think sounds good actually is just fine, whereas at the same time, something that measures well, but you don't like how it sounds is also acceptable just because. I mean the science is either the science or it's not. Now I can explain why certain things that don't measure well could still sound fine, because it does depend on your music, the overall recording quality of that music, and of your speakers or headphones, as well as your listening environment.

 

[pablolie]

When I saw this I thought about this thread for some. reason...

 

[meesbaker]

Right, so your statement is contradicting in every way, because either you are able to understand that the measurements correlate to what you would listen to, or you're not. So you cannot say that something which doesn't measure well, but you think sounds good actually is just fine, whereas at the same time, something that measures well, but you don't like how it sounds is also acceptable just because. I mean the science is either the science or it's not. Now I can explain why certain things that don't measure well could still sound fine, because it does depend on your music, the overall recording quality of that music, and of your speakers or headphones, as well as your listening environment.

I understand you but that was not my point, when you say that the measurements correlate to what you would hear then you are closer to what I believe. All Im saying is that if you tell anyone by default what they conclude from hearing test is completely imaginary then there isnt much point in having equipment that measures well. Because if you treat subjective judgment as complete ramdomness then it makes no difference really what you buy in the first place and in that case - the measurements no matter if good or bad - would not correlate at all to what you listen to like you are saying. They would be just a nice thing to have that hit a randomiser.

The easy quick summary of what Im saying is if you think you're deaf and dumb and unable to hear shit, why would you even bother gettinh good stuff and measure every component , you would t hear it anyway and it'd all be a waste.

 

[RexrothPigeon]

if you treat subjective judgment as complete ramdomness then it makes no difference really what you buy in the first place

Read this again:

ASR only dismisses subjective experiences when they are uncontrolled (not blind, no level matching, no comparison between 2 stimuli with multiple trails in a short time span and so on), and someone wants to sell these observations as truth.

It's well understood that sighted (or non-level-matched or no direct comparison...) subjective listening impressions are not reliable at all

 

[meesbaker]

Read this again:


It's well understood that sighted or (non-level-matched or no direct comparison...) subjective listening impressions are not reliable at all

Unreliable for precise comparison for sure but there should still be some kind of allignment between the objective and subjective reviews. I think having the numbers and the facts is super important as a guideline and an objective truth but idk if the way Ive seen in some threads here people get dealt with because they didnt being the measuring toolkits is the right way. You should be able to hear things, too and if not , then I think there is no point in measuring on a level that is way deeper than your ability to hear it either.

 

[raif71]

View attachment 469642
When I saw this I thought about this thread for some. reason...

Bryan Adams' Summer of 69 ?

 

[Newman]

Unreliable for precise comparison for sure but there should still be some kind of allignment between the objective and subjective reviews.

No, you are just making that up because it seems logical to you, and the idea that sighted listening should be dominated by the audible attributes of the sound waves seems intuitively correct. The brain is hard-wired to tell us that.

The data is the opposite. The data is that sighted listening is dominated by non-sonic contextual factors. The longer you deny this, the longer you stay in the dark about one of the key counterintuitive lessons from audio science. Sighted listening cannot be relied upon to determine the audible attributes of the sound waves themselves. Sighted listening cannot be relied upon to determine which loudspeaker emits sound waves that you prefer.

I think having the numbers and the facts is super important as a guideline and an objective truth but idk if the way Ive seen in some threads here people get dealt with because they didnt being the measuring toolkits is the right way. You should be able to hear things, too and if not , then I think there is no point in measuring on a level that is way deeper than your ability to hear it either.

Of course you can hear things too. But if you want to know what those things are, make sure it is in a listening test that is controlled for non-sonic factors.

cheers

 

[meesbaker]

Im terribly sorry if this sounds like its going in a circle but wouldnt that mean that the audible attributes are irrelevant if we are unable to reliably hear or distinguish them?

If the context is the main thing that affects what I perceive then the context is all I should have to worry about right?