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Master Complaint Thread About Headphone Measurements

ChuckL

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Are you aware of the latest IEM measurement gadget by AUDIX released in Nov 2020?
Also on June 21, 2021, AUDIX released 2 IEMs that appear to be "deluxe.", A10 and A10X.
Now waiting for someone to get these and have them tested, and compare the $1300 TM2 Earphone Test & Measurement Coupler!!
 
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amirm

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Are you aware of the latest IEM measurement gadget by AUDIX released in Nov 2020?
Also on June 21, 2021, AUDIX released 2 IEMs that appear to be "deluxe.", A10 and A10X.
Now waiting for someone to get these and have them tested, and compare the $1300 TM2 Earphone Test & Measurement Coupler!!
I was not. I will reach out to them to see if I can get them for testing.
 
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aandres_gm

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I knew there are two major Escolas in Audio:
1. who aims to reproduce sound as close as possible to the real thing...
2. Who gave up on "1" as it's impossible to reach, so they aim to the most pleasant sound for their ears.
Now I'm finding a third Escola: The EQ group. Those who EQ everything.
If it wasn't clear, I am from the 1st Escola. But it's just me.
How do you exactly go about reproducing sound as close as possible to the real thing? How do you guarantee the microphones used to record the real thing weren't adding colouring or that their placement didn't change aspects of the sound produced by the instruments? How do you make sure the mixing engineer didn't change the recording to suit his taste? How can you make sure the reproduction equipment used during mixing didn't have a large impact on how the mix sounds?

When listening to music, you're not listening to the real thing. You're listening to a limited recording of the real thing that got reinterpreted by the producers/mixers/etc and probably changed in some way by the delivery method you opted to choose, and then altered by the speakers/headphones you have as well as by your environment. Unless you get the exact same equipment and room the studio had (which in many cases can be sub-optimal, from a sound quality perspective), you won't even get the same kind of experience the mixing engineer had that day in the studio.

You're chasing something that's impossible to attain. All EQ does is alleviate some of the faults that can be measured on your end of the reproduction and, if you were to do it well, it may even bring you closer to what the mixing engineer heard when working on the tracks you're listening to.

Also, your example on the live musicians and EQ clearly shows you don't know what EQ should do or what it could be used for.

From what I recall, this video touches a bit on the subject of production vs reproduction

Edit: yes. Starts at 7:48
 

brandall10

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solderdude
You are tiring me. Please go and find yourself another ride.

There's this place called Head-fi that restricts sound science discussions to an actual sound science forum, which is largely what ASR is. I believe it's the largest hifi forum on the internet. Check it out, you'll love it. I've been a member since 2005. I spend most of my time over here as I think differently now.
 

Helicopter

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There's this place called Head-fi that restricts sound science discussions to an actual sound science forum, which is largely what ASR is. I believe it's the largest hifi forum on the internet. Check it out, you'll love it. I've been a member since 2005. I spend most of my time over here as I think differently now.
ASR is on track to surpass head fi in a short while. We should plan a party.
 

brandall10

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ASR is on track to surpass head fi in a short while. We should plan a party.

Ha... I don't know about that, just main headphones section alone has 5x the number of posts on this entire site - granted, it's been around 4x as long. That said, this place appears to be having an outsized impact on real engineering taking place (as opposed to more commerce/marketing over there) which I'm most appreciative of.
 

tential

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It never occurred to me to get my happy ending with EQ. Yes, at those places (like the one serve desserts) they never offered EQ to a poor tasting
cake or coffee. Except the particular forum of Amir, it is kind of rear in audio to end with the EQ solution. It might be the easy way,
but also the wrong way. There are enough products and systems out there that perform well without EQ. I'll rather put my effort and time to
find them, rather than to find how to EQ a mediocre, cheap or poor sounding product.


What are you talking about? When I go to a restaurant, I tell the waiter how I want the meats done, how much sauce I want, I can eq everything. You're using these hilariously terrible reasons to describe your personal preferences off as truths. You can "eq" anything. I get a car, I customize it, I get a house, I paint it, I get tech gear, I modify it. You can do WHATEVER you want. And I don't even eq, I just don't like to do it. I'm happy with the highest quality headphone that gets close enough. I won't get closer without eq assistance just because I'm happy with where I am.

Further, your idea you can find the best headphones without eq, when you don't have equipment to do so, means you aren't ever going to find the "best reproduction". You put weight onto the listening section of what amir says, so you're now taking subjective info in as well.

It's just insane. What you say you care about, you have no hope of obtaining. You literally don't understand what you're doing. You have an ideal, but no actual knowledge of how to get there.

We have tons of people in the industry like you who have "an ideal" but no technical expertise to deliver it. That's why there are so few headphones that deliver a "perfect" experience without eq. And I mean, any person with your argument should be able to list off some perfect headphones that don't need eq vs saying "I'll just keep looking". What? How are you doing that research? This is what's wrong with society today in general. So what you never thought to "achieve your happy with eq?". So that means you have new things to consider. Doesn't make something you literally say you NEVER considered wrong. Even worse, if you NEVER DID IT, how did you jump to a conclusion so quickly? People just are unwilling to accept "hey, I did something for a long time, and this person does it differently, I may need to learn". No... Just double down on your idea even when it should be obvious at this point you've made huge critical reasoning errors.
 
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pwjazz

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Not that it matters, but the goings on in the headphone forum are making me take a hiatus (possibly permanent) from ASR. I came for the measurements of source gear and stayed for the interesting people who participate here. When ASR got into headphone measurements, I was dubious that they would bring much new to the table relative to the many other sources of measurement but hopeful that something good would come of it. There are some bright spots such as getting actual distortion measurements from a HATS, but on the whole I find that the exercise lacks the curiosity, experimentation and joy trust I seek. Given the experience of some of the participants here, and the site's prominence, there is amole opportunity for collegial discussion that could advance the state of practice in headphone reviews and maybe even headphone design, but I don't get the feeling that site leadership is open to those kinds of discussions.

I could go into specifics, but I have every expectation that it would at best lead nowhere and at worst devolve into defensiveness and recriminations. If I expected better, I'd probably stick around.

To @amirm, the mods and everyone on here, please try to have fun, listen to each other and be open to learning from each other and through experimentation.
 

AdamG

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Not that it matters, but the goings on in the headphone forum are making me take a hiatus (possibly permanent) from ASR. I came for the measurements of source gear and stayed for the interesting people who participate here. When ASR got into headphone measurements, I was dubious that they would bring much new to the table relative to the many other sources of measurement but hopeful that something good would come of it. There are some bright spots such as getting actual distortion measurements from a HATS, but on the whole I find that the exercise lacks the curiosity, experimentation and joy trust I seek. Given the experience of some of the participants here, and the site's prominence, there is amole opportunity for collegial discussion that could advance the state of practice in headphone reviews and maybe even headphone design, but I don't get the feeling that site leadership is open to those kinds of discussions.

I could go into specifics, but I have every expectation that it would at best lead nowhere and at worst devolve into defensiveness and recriminations. If I expected better, I'd probably stick around.

To @amirm, the mods and everyone on here, please try to have fun, listen to each other and be open to learning from each other and through experimentation.
I am interested to hear what you have to say. Very much so. I sent you a PM as well. Let’s talk!
 
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amirm

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There are some bright spots such as getting actual distortion measurements from a HATS, but on the whole I find that the exercise lacks the curiosity, experimentation and joy trust I seek.
You say a lot in this sentence. What you don't see is incredible pressure I am under to get these reviews out, day in and day out. I have let my other hobbies such as gardening, sink to lowest level to try to keep up with reviews. Weeds are everywhere in the garden and I have tons of transplants dying in their little pods because I can't make the time to plant them. Meanwhile, members want to get their products reviewed understandably, seeing how some have been waiting months for them. There is probably 50 boxes here piling up in our living room waiting to be tested.

In the copious "free" time I have, I am working on projects such as figuring out how to measure in-wall speakers. Slide sets to create for tutorials for videos. You know, stuff that exists but you think they don't because I don't talk about them.

Then comes headphone reviews. Unless the outcome is stellar, you can be assured of a barrage of complaints. Oh this other guy shows different measurements than you. Really? If you trust that one, why are you are you reading mine? I am not the kid you slap on the back of the head every time you walk by because you can.

If I entertained every request, "why don't you measure it this way or that way," this whole project would come to a grinding halt. There is a system here, however imperfect, to get through and produce a ton of objective data that doesn't exist otherwise across so many products and categories. Massive investment of time, money and sacrifices in life elsewhere is required to get us this far.

But no, I didn't test this headphone with that other pad so let's throw in the towel on the whole thing. Is this what you are really saying?

Haven't taken a vacation in year and half. Not even a day trip. Sitting here, I don't even know how to stop doing this work and do a bit of that.

You want experimentation? Fund it. Generate $50,000/year I can pay someone else to chase all these things you want investigated. Sans that, you are stuck with one of me. There is no more to be had especially given the manner in which wishes are expressed.....
 

Sombreuil

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Meanwhile, members want to get their products reviewed understandably, seeing how some have been waiting months for them. There is probably 50 boxes here piling up in our living room waiting to be tested.

Wouldn't a roadmap be useful? People would see when (not necessarily the exact date, but at least the order) their products are going to be reviewed. Plus we would stop asking for reviews if we know you already own said products.
 
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amirm

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Wouldn't a roadmap be useful? People would see when (not necessarily the exact date, but at least the order) their products are going to be reviewed. Plus we would stop asking for reviews if we know you already own said products.
I hear you but the system is too fluid to allow that. I routinely get new requests such as, "if I buy this, can you test it before return period?" I receive new products all of a sudden that will be announced in a couple of weeks. I just missed the deadline for one of these today. I get products I can't get working such as KEF speaker I have. There are also products that are broken physically. I have also tested a bunch of products as of late which have required back and forth with the company.

I test things based on priority that develops each day. Any schedule that sets expectations would create more work and tension, not less.

If we stretched out the review time to months, reduced the throughput substantially to allow for hick ups, then sure. We would be talking about 20 to 30 reviews a year. Not that many a month as I do.
 

Robbo99999

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You say a lot in this sentence. What you don't see is incredible pressure I am under to get these reviews out, day in and day out. I have let my other hobbies such as gardening, sink to lowest level to try to keep up with reviews. Weeds are everywhere in the garden and I have tons of transplants dying in their little pods because I can't make the time to plant them. Meanwhile, members want to get their products reviewed understandably, seeing how some have been waiting months for them. There is probably 50 boxes here piling up in our living room waiting to be tested.

In the copious "free" time I have, I am working on projects such as figuring out how to measure in-wall speakers. Slide sets to create for tutorials for videos. You know, stuff that exists but you think they don't because I don't talk about them.

Then comes headphone reviews. Unless the outcome is stellar, you can be assured of a barrage of complaints. Oh this other guy shows different measurements than you. Really? If you trust that one, why are you are you reading mine? I am not the kid you slap on the back of the head every time you walk by because you can.

If I entertained every request, "why don't you measure it this way or that way," this whole project would come to a grinding halt. There is a system here, however imperfect, to get through and produce a ton of objective data that doesn't exist otherwise across so many products and categories. Massive investment of time, money and sacrifices in life elsewhere is required to get us this far.

But no, I didn't test this headphone with that other pad so let's throw in the towel on the whole thing. Is this what you are really saying?

Haven't taken a vacation in year and half. Not even a day trip. Sitting here, I don't even know how to stop doing this work and do a bit of that.

You want experimentation? Fund it. Generate $50,000/year I can pay someone else to chase all these things you want investigated. Sans that, you are stuck with one of me. There is no more to be had especially given the manner in which wishes are expressed.....
(Just be picky about which headphones you test re pads, so that might cut down on the list to be tested too.....I still enjoy this site & think it has value)
 

pwjazz

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You say a lot in this sentence. What you don't see is incredible pressure I am under to get these reviews out, day in and day out. I have let my other hobbies such as gardening, sink to lowest level to try to keep up with reviews. Weeds are everywhere in the garden and I have tons of transplants dying in their little pods because I can't make the time to plant them. Meanwhile, members want to get their products reviewed understandably, seeing how some have been waiting months for them. There is probably 50 boxes here piling up in our living room waiting to be tested.

In the copious "free" time I have, I am working on projects such as figuring out how to measure in-wall speakers. Slide sets to create for tutorials for videos. You know, stuff that exists but you think they don't because I don't talk about them.

Then comes headphone reviews. Unless the outcome is stellar, you can be assured of a barrage of complaints. Oh this other guy shows different measurements than you. Really? If you trust that one, why are you are you reading mine? I am not the kid you slap on the back of the head every time you walk by because you can.

If I entertained every request, "why don't you measure it this way or that way," this whole project would come to a grinding halt. There is a system here, however imperfect, to get through and produce a ton of objective data that doesn't exist otherwise across so many products and categories. Massive investment of time, money and sacrifices in life elsewhere is required to get us this far.

But no, I didn't test this headphone with that other pad so let's throw in the towel on the whole thing. Is this what you are really saying?

Haven't taken a vacation in year and half. Not even a day trip. Sitting here, I don't even know how to stop doing this work and do a bit of that.

You want experimentation? Fund it. Generate $50,000/year I can pay someone else to chase all these things you want investigated. Sans that, you are stuck with one of me. There is no more to be had especially given the manner in which wishes are expressed.....

With all due respect, it sounds like you're not enjoying this. If you're not enjoying it, why do it?

If your goal is to get through measuring as many headphones as possible, perhaps just focus on that, skip the exposition/recommendations and don't accept comments? Maybe a blog would be a better format than a discussion forum?

With regard to the many suggestions you get, my complaint isn't so much that you don't pursue all of them but rather that you tend to exhibit a dismissive attitude towards them. This post of yours is a perfect example - someone like myself who suggests that there are areas for improvement is alternately treated like a troll, a leech or an imbecile, rather than being treated as a thinking human being with interesting questions and potentially interesting contributions, and ultimately is just an impediment to your work. That's a poor basis for building a vibrant community, which is what I sought here.

Regarding the pad thing specifically... I don't know where you got the idea that I wanted you to remeasure the Atticus, I never asked for that. I simply made the general point that pads can make a large difference to sound, something that has been well established by reputable measurements from various sources. You refused to accept this at face value and dismissed the evidence I provided by questioning the integrity of the source, which is what led me to offer to send you a variety of pads so that you can verify for yourself. Sure it's not $50k annually, but it's what I have to offer.

To get right down to it, possible outcomes that would have satisfied me would be:

1. You accept existing evidence and admit that pads can make a substantial difference, and take this into account when for example, measuring the HD598SE with after-market pads, by withholding judgment and clearly caveating your measurements.

2. You accept my offer of pads and investigate for yourself

3. You ask me to conduct an experiment to satisfy you (I can offer E.A.R.S. measurements and occluded ear, but no GRAS unless you'll loan me yours :)

Instead, this discussion went nowhere and you continue to measure headphones without regard to pad provenance or condition. That's a missed opportunity for learning and improvement, which doesn't align with what I thought was the spirit of this place.

If you don't have something you want from me that's somewhere between shutting up or donating 50k annually, then my instinct to just leave is vindicated.

P.S. regarding "you are stuck with one of me" ... that's something that could at least in part be remedied by you reaching out to folks in the community like oratory1990 (as I once suggested) and figuring out ways to pool your resources and learn from each other, but you dismissed that too.
 
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amirm

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With all due respect, it sounds like you're not enjoying this. If you're not enjoying it, why do it?
What do you mean by "this?" I love testing audio equipment. Each one is exciting in the way they reveal a wealth of information about the product that you can't possibly predict most of the time.

I love sharing the information with membership and visitors alike.

I love getting feedback from people who find the information very useful.

I love the reaction from knowledgeable members that expand on the review, make me think, and teach me a thing or two.

I love that there are some super experienced members who critique in the most welcoming manner. They make me think, learn and change what I do.

I love the way we are changing the world of audio, one day at a time and one review at a time. There is a massive transformation in how consumers look at audio gear, and how manufacturers are looking at it. It is the "boil the ocean" type of scenario that you never dream to be able to trigger, but it is happening.

So your impression is quite wrong. I expressed the dynamics of the forum so you better understand the context under which I study your requests. I look at people's attitude, constructiveness, value and merit of suggestion, the scope of work and precedence it sets for future reviews, how much they have paid attention to my explanations, etc. as to whether I do anything about their complaining.

The day I am not "enjoying" this, you will know as I will stop cold. On that day, you would to reflect back and see if you had anything to do with that and if so, whether you are OK with it.
 

solderdude

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What you don't see is incredible pressure I am under to get these reviews out, day in and day out. I have let my other hobbies such as gardening, sink to lowest level to try to keep up with reviews.

There is probably 50 boxes here piling up in our living room waiting to be tested.

Massive investment of time, money and sacrifices in life elsewhere is required to get us this far.

In the copious "free" time I have, I am working on projects such as figuring out how to measure in-wall speakers. Slide sets to create for tutorials for videos. You know, stuff that exists but you think they don't because I don't talk about them.

Haven't taken a vacation in year and half. Not even a day trip. Sitting here, I don't even know how to stop doing this work and do a bit of that.

you are stuck with one of me.

I am no dr. Phil but have had a burnout (like most passionate and helpful people have I presume).
I know I don't have to tell you anything about time measurement.

Personally I would ask members to stop sending things in (upcoming products from manufacturers obviously not) till you have cleared the living room.
For instance free 1, or God forbid, 2 days not to be spent on ASR ?
I expect you also take time to comment aside from the time it takes to write reviews which I know is more time consuming than running some tests.

No one (but you most likely0 will mind if you don't post 1 or 2 reviews a day, 7 days a week. I know they love it and are looking forward to it but they really won't notice/mind if you literally take 1 or 2 days 'off' a week.

The day I am not "enjoying" this, you will know as I will stop cold.

That's what I am trying to avoid here. No human on this planet can take your (enjoy-full) burden indefinitely. Something's gonna crack some day.
Make sure it is not you.
 
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tential

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I hear you but the system is too fluid to allow that. I routinely get new requests such as, "if I buy this, can you test it before return period?" I receive new products all of a sudden that will be announced in a couple of weeks. I just missed the deadline for one of these today. I get products I can't get working such as KEF speaker I have. There are also products that are broken physically. I have also tested a bunch of products as of late which have required back and forth with the company.

I test things based on priority that develops each day. Any schedule that sets expectations would create more work and tension, not less.

If we stretched out the review time to months, reduced the throughput substantially to allow for hick ups, then sure. We would be talking about 20 to 30 reviews a year. Not that many a month as I do.

Sounds like you need to draw some lines and priorities up. Not like I'm any better, hence why I'm working at 1 AM right now.

Really, I think some reviews weren't that necessary to rush. All the discontinued headphones? Interesting info, but could be done anytime. Testing a product before return period? I mean, that sounds like the person is getting a free chance to return a product if they don't like a review. I understand not wanting a bad product or something, but they're basically using you as a service there. Really, if they send it to you, it's on them. You could set some boundaries to lighten the load in that respect.

I'm not saying it's easy, just saying there are SOME things you can do and not saying it'll make a huge difference, but it's something. Really, I don't think being that busy is good for your own creativity. Varying activities like the garden should be good for you. Id rather you add 30% more time to each product (even if that 30% is spent gardening) than get more reviews.

Just continuing on the return thing, I'd have bought every dap by now and sent to you if I knew you'd do that. That's not sustainable (or really fair to the business).

On reviews for a product launch, unless you really love that relationship with the company, it seems you have such the backlog that their product would come in anyway eventually. So really, like the jds atom+, why rush to get it out to the benefit of the company at your expense? You're gonna get the product anyway eventually, you've got a backlog, other than your own curiosity (valid) I think you've got quite more room than you may realize to maneuver.
 
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Sal1950

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Haven't taken a vacation in year and half. Not even a day trip. Sitting here, I don't even know how to stop doing this work and do a bit of that.
If you continue to burn the candle from both ends it's going to reach the burn-out point bro.
Find time to take the breaks, just do it.

The work load is only going to get worse in any case, you have to listen to Nancy and Just Say No to some things.
(Been there, done that), over on my Linux site with people only getting more demanding every day. They have no idea of the pressure they put on the Admin's.
Your supposed to be retired, remember. LOL
 

Jimbob54

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If you continue to burn the candle from both ends it's going to reach the burn-out point bro.
Find time to take the breaks, just do it.

The work load is only going to get worse in any case, you have to listen to Nancy and Just Say No to some things.
(Been there, done that), over on my Linux site with people only getting more demanding every day. They have no idea of the pressure they put on the Admin's.
Your supposed to be retired, remember. LOL

Yup- stop the deliveries coming in the door for a period and take some time off. Put up a "gone fishin'" notice.
 
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