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Master Complaint Thread About Headphone Measurements

DualTriode

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Headphones are designed to interact with ears, not to work in free space or on flat plate rigs. Leaving that away will change the impedance of the system which will behave different for every headphone.

Flat plates are sometimes used for quality assurance. They have very limited use for the practical design process and prediction of sound, though. (Please provide evidence, hand waves do not count as evidence.)

You are completely not listening.

Speakers are not made to be listened to in an anechoic chamber either. However that is where cold hard analytic measurements are made. Ears and hand waving need not apply.

I will be glad to post headphone impedance curves on the 45CA-9, flat plate, plus on my own ears in addition to 45CA-9, flat plate frequency response curves.

@solderdude please feel free to share your flat plate and $0.60 microphone experience.

Thanks DT
 

Dreyfus

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I am listening. I am just not following your narrative because the way speakers and headphones are designed, measured and practically used are fundamentally different.

Speakers excite room sound. Headphones excite sound in a small, closed cavity.
Speakers in a room can be perceived like natural sound sources. They excite the full HRTF. You can move your head to orientate in the sound field.
Headphones on the other hand do not fall in this category. They couple directly to your head and ear and transfer the sound more or less directly to your ear drum. The orientation is missing because it is not a natural sound source, hence the in-head-localization and disability to render spatiality.
These physical circumstances lead to completely different hurdles and goals when designing and measuring the system.

As already mentioned, headphones are designed to work on human heads. They rely on the closed volume to produce pressure in full fidelity. Their tuning does also involve the human pinna which does dampen and amplify certain frequencies. Same for the presence of the ear canal.
Every design decision you make - driver size, distance and angle, pad and cavity size, shape and material etc. - will interact differently with its acoustic envirnonment. Measuring on a flat plat will show a totally different response than measuring in-situ on a human head. Everything fine, as long as we are looking at only one headphone at one exact seating position. But now imagine a different headphone. Instead of transmitting the sound in a straight line right to the ear drum this one might move the driver much more to the front and let the sound enter your ear at an angle. The sound becomes more diffuse and excites the PRTF at a different angle, excites varying amplification and cancellation patterns.
Now back to the flat plate. This one could be used to simply generate the PRTF interactions by a mathematical model. But what if the excited PRTF response does change every time you reposition the headphone on the reference system, the human head or ear and cheek simulator? What if the PRTF response is different for every headphone because it has a varying acoustic design? What if the sound hits the flat plate mic mainly at 0° and adds a pressure build up due to phase overlapping? What if the angle changes and the compensation of the mic becomes more and more random incidence?

I could continue to illustrate this game for hours.
The essence is that letting a car run on a motor power testing station is a totally different experience than driving it in urban traffic or somewhere in the woods. You can try simulating specific features for those purposes. But you will never get the full and comprehensive story unless you bring the thing out to the road.

One thing we have to accept is that headphone coupling and ear simulation are based on a dynamic phenomenon which changes its (measured) impedance all the time. There is no science of absolute accuracy, just human nature and the misbelief to be able to control something that has no fixed shape. We chase after something we simply cannot control, and imagine we have mastered to get an idea of "objectivity".

Just my 2 cents.

Regards
Dreyfus
 
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I listen to headphones through a Drop THX 789, and a Matrix Mini-i-pro 2, which don't offer the ability to do equalization adjustments. Please advise how people who do EQ adjustments for headphone listening accomplish the adjustments. Also, you might note the what audio ranges you have found most beneficial in adjusting for 'tuning' headphones. I am aware that in JRiver I can set specific audio frequency ranges, and subsequent to that increase or decrease the relative output (volume) of that specific frequency range. I also know that the RME ADI-2 includes a headphone amplifier and headphone outputs; and that it is equipped with EQ capability. Do I need the RME ADI-2 to effectively do EQ for headphone listening?

If you are using a computer as your source you can use the program Equalizer APO. I use a 31-band EQ to start, but then I change it to custom, so I can add however many bands to EQ and in whatever position I want. I then just run a sweep and listen for what jumps out and what gets quieter from my reference volume. I've made some pretty terrible 2.1 computer speakers sound pretty OK this way.
 

DualTriode

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I am listening. I am just not following your narrative because the way speakers and headphones are designed, measured and practically used are fundamentally different.

Speakers excite room sound. Headphones excite sound in a small, closed cavity.
Speakers in a room can be perceived like natural sound sources. They excite the full HRTF. You can move your head to orientate in the sound field.
Headphones on the other hand do not fall in this category. They couple directly to your head and ear and transfer the sound more or less directly to your ear drum. The orientation is missing because it is not a natural sound source, hence the in-head-localization and disability to render spatiality.
These physical circumstances lead to completely different hurdles and goals when designing and measuring the system.

As already mentioned, headphones are designed to work on human heads. They rely on the closed volume to produce pressure in full fidelity. Their tuning does also involve the human pinna which does dampen and amplify certain frequencies. Same for the presence of the ear canal.
Every design decision you make - driver size, distance and angle, pad and cavity size, shape and material etc. - will interact differently with its acoustic envirnonment. Measuring on a flat plat will show a totally different response than measuring in-situ on a human head. Everything fine, as long as we are looking at only one headphone at one exact seating position. But now imagine a different headphone. Instead of transmitting the sound in a straight line right to the ear drum this one might move the driver much more to the front and let the sound enter your ear at an angle. The sound becomes more diffuse and excites the PRTF at a different angle.
Now back to the flat plate. This one could be used to simply generate the PRTF interactions by a mathematical model. But what if the excited PRTF response does change every time you reposition the headphone on the reference system, the human head or ear and cheek simulator? What if the PRTF response is different for every headphone because it has a varying acoustic design? What if the sound hits the flat plate mic mainly at 0° and adds a pressure build up due to phase overlapping? What if the angle changes and the compensation of the mic becomes more and more random incidence?

I could continue to illustrate this game for hours.
The essence is that letting a car run on a motor power testing station is a totally different experience than driving it in urban traffic or somewhere in the woods. You can try simulating specific features for those purposes. But you will never get the full and comprehensive story unless you bring the thing on the road.

One thing we have to accept is that headphone coupling and ear simulation are based on a dynamic phenomenon which changes its impedance all the time. There is no science of absolute accuracy, just human nature and the misbelief to be able to control something that has no fixed shape.

Regards
Dreyfus

No news here much of what you say is true, yet much is hand waving.

You say that a state of the art artificial ear brings too much confusion or variability. I say too many ears to measure.

I say okay lets measure without the ear, and you complain.

A flat plate frequency response will tell more cold analytic information about a headphone frequency response than we can measure with an artificial ear. Flat plate measurements can provide better headphone comparisons between headphones without the the reflections caused by an ear inside the headphone cup.

I will post both 45CA and flat plate measurements.

Transfer functions and inverse transfer functions (equalization curves) and on head Harman curve predictions will come later.

Thanks DT

Done for today.
 

thewas

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As @Dreyfus correctly writes individual HRTFs don't play a role when listening to loudspeakers as they are the same when listening to real sounds which is our reference target, while headphones partially bridge over them, that's why they matter there.
 

DualTriode

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Its not the gear that brings the confusion, it is the wrong attitude and misinterpretation of measurements.

Not sure what your hand waving argument is all about. But I think you should definitely gather some more practical experience. ;)

Until then, good luck!
Dreyfus

Hello,

A hand wave is a pejorative, a label for dismissing my statements while presenting no evidence to the contrary. You have said nothing of substance to convince us that there is no value in flat plane headphone testing.

I do not need to hear noise and vibration to see it and I do not need to listen to my speakers in an anechoic chamber to see value in anechoic testing.

Experence?

I am a retired Mechanical Engineer. I am the guy that would show up at you facility or Lab to sort your noise and vibration issues.

I do see value in measuring the frequency response of a set of headphones without the reflections and resonance of a human ear or artificial ear attached. At This point I do not care what it sounds like, that is perhaps the next step.

Flat plane testing a headphone on my bench will be much the same as testing a compression driver with a plane wave tube attached.

Thanks DT
 

Dreyfus

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Just in case someone is interested in the non-linear shiftings between different rigs and headphone designs, our colleague @Mad_Economist has linked a very comprehensive roundup of this topic in the 5128 HATS thread:
https://forum.headphones.com/t/measurements-charts-graphs-software-methods/2333/38

You may also check this analysis examining the delta between a few established measurement databases:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...omparing-headphone-measurement-systems.12634/
Even if you compensate for the average unit-to-unit variation of the devices under test, the demonstrated fundamental issues of this field are hard to omit.

Regards
Dreyfus
 

thewas

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I am a retired Mechanical Engineer
To make it maybe more understandable to a mechanical engineer, measuring a headphone on a flat plane or even worse in "free field" is like measuring the characteristic engine curves with no load, it will give you some but not the ones you usually need in practice.

Greetings from an active mechanical engineer who also used to do his own flat plate headphone measurements
 

Savi

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Hi,
Maybe the question has already been asked but I did not see it. I speak about it in focal clear review but it is a generic question. In my (small) experience, my personnal preference goes to open back headphones vs closed back. The downside is that it could be annoying for surrounding people. Hence, I was asking myself, are all opened back equal regarding this point ? If not, would a measure of the surrounding level (50cm front for instance) for a given listening level would help to rank headphones ?
 
OP
amirm

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If not, would a measure of the surrounding level (50cm front for instance) for a given listening level would help to rank headphones ?
To be clear, you are asking for how much sound is transmitted externally from the headphone? If so, I have to figure out a standardized way to measure it as far angle and such. Exposure may not be uniform all around though so have to think about it. Good question/suggest though. :)
 

solderdude

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Hi,
Maybe the question has already been asked but I did not see it. I speak about it in focal clear review but it is a generic question. In my (small) experience, my personnal preference goes to open back headphones vs closed back. The downside is that it could be annoying for surrounding people. Hence, I was asking myself, are all opened back equal regarding this point ? If not, would a measure of the surrounding level (50cm front for instance) for a given listening level would help to rank headphones ?

They do differ. Rtings tests for this. They also have a free comparison function so you can compare the 'leakage' of open, semi open and closed headphones.
https://www.rtings.com/headphones/1-2/graph#/2097

select 'Leakage' in the upper drop down menu. Alas only a select few headphones can be compared in the comparator but leakage plots are shown in the reviews of the headphones.
 

Savi

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To be clear, you are asking for how much sound is transmitted externally from the headphone? If so, I have to figure out a standardized way to measure it as far angle and such. Exposure may not be uniform all around though so have to think about it. Good question/suggest though. :)

Yes, exactly. The exposure is probably not uniform but the idea is more to create a standard in order to rank heaphone. For instance two measures (50cm side and 50cm front @94 dBSPL in the horizontal plane of the phones). The question is more, someone other than myself will find it interesting ? ;)
 
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amirm

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I can't measure from too far as room noise would then intrude. The other question is what to measure. What frequencies would be more annoying to people around you? Do people complain about high pitched sounds, mid-tones or bass? Or a combination?
 

Dreyfus

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Would be interesting to see some interaural analysis that shows the interaction between the left and right side (effect of shadowing induced by the head and cup design) for open headphones. Hard to establish with just an ear and cheek simulator, though. You would also need a very quiet room (well damped chamber) for that. Measuring leakage on the other hand should be quite feasible with this rig.

Regards
Dreyfus
 

MZKM

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I can't measure from too far as room noise would then intrude. The other question is what to measure. What frequencies would be more annoying to people around you? Do people complain about high pitched sounds, mid-tones or bass? Or a combination?
Obviously affix it on the headphone rig and use the NFS to measure it ;)

RTINGS has a sound isolation test and a sound leakage test.
Sound isolation:
https://www.rtings.com/headphones/t...n-cancellation-passive-active#comparison_4054

Sound leakage:
https://www.rtings.com/headphones/tests/isolation/sound-leakage#comparison_4061

I don’t expect you to go to this degree of investment though.
 
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amirm

amirm

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I don’t expect you to go to this degree of investment though.
Very odd choices in their approach. 20 kHz? No one will hear that and at any rate, music has so little energy in that spectrum. I will have to do some research myself then to figure out what makes sense to measure.
 

DualTriode

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I can't measure from too far as room noise would then intrude. The other question is what to measure. What frequencies would be more annoying to people around you? Do people complain about high pitched sounds, mid-tones or bass? Or a combination?

Measure it like any other nuisance noise. Use a hand held A-weighted instrument. Have your wife hold the instrument and walk towards you while you are listening to music on your headphones. The same approach as your local nuisance noise ordnance.

Thanks DT
 
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nj75f

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Holy smokes. :D
New censorship straight from Chinas Winnie the Poo, ahem, amirm himself. https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/new-rules-for-review-threads.18744/

That is how you deal with the unwanted people sharing their opinions disliking these audio"science"-headphone reviews.
Just censor it. Could make the headphone reviews more sciency and less subjective, but it is easier that way I guess.

When will real asr-headphone reviews come? Next year? Checking the last 2 headphone reviews: Yes, it is getting a little bit more sciency :)
It took quite some time for speaker reviews to be as good and helpful as they are now, even when they're 50 % objective and 50 % subjective.
But at least they're not mainly propagating some frequency curve, like propagating my favorite bar of chocolate. :p
 
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amirm

amirm

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