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Master Clocks...Snake Oil?

eliash

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When I read your CO-related post, it reminded me vehemently of my SONET design & engineering time for optical tranceivers, regenerators, PLLs and high speed integrated mixed mode stuff. Here we were judging jitter in UIs (unit intervals of a bit), because jitter was not really critical in the digital domain, in contrast to analog audio.
When I saw that you are located in FL, I immediately thought of the company I worked for, also located in Boca Raton, where such development took place during that timeframe...
 
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mansr

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Now here comes the thought experiment´s trick how to convert that into a jitter value:
Let´s assume an almost full scale ultrasonic sine wave signal (which is in itself inaudible) and modulate the baseline (if you like, the DC-value of the sine wave) with the 3KHz. Then this tone would become of course audible from -110dB upwards.
That's not jitter or modulation. That's adding a 3 kHz tone.
 

eliash

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That's not jitter or modulation. That's adding a 3 kHz tone.

True in the first place, that´s why I took the baseline modulation as a supporting assumption.
If you further think about shortening one halfwave and extending the opposite polarity halfwave (and vice versa) you generate something comparable to the baseline modulation, since one halfwave prevails longer than the other, which, on average (integral areas), causes a modulation. The assumptions work of course only accurately, when the ratio between the modulation and the original signal is very low.
For me, the really hard thing to understand part was, that the mentioned ultrasonic signal frequency has no major influence on the generation of the unwanted signal in that thought experiment.


A late remark:
Maybe I was a bit quick applying the 2 x pi as a converson factor.
I have to think about it, but comments of course welcome.
Just see it as a jitter riddle;)


Not as simple as I thought after going back to the phase modulation theory, probably no shortcut available.
Therefore I withdraw my thought experiment...sorry for causing twisted brains.
 
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eliash

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That's not jitter or modulation. That's adding a 3 kHz tone.

Here is my 2nd attempt of building a thought experiment, concerning a worst case DAC-clock jitter scenario which could turn an inaudible signal into something unwanted audible.


Just assume a high level ultrasonic, but inaudible signal being converted from digital to analog in a DAC.
In case, when the DAC clock is not clean in terms of jitter, there will be a phase modulation of the a .m. ultrasonic signal.
Further assuming that this jitter is periodic at 24KHz (not a mandatory frequency, just as an example - it might be related to a 48KHz sampled test file and therefore associated to the internal DAC´s oversampling rate running at nx48KHz...).
Aiming at the worst case of detecting such jitter by ear, one could use an inaudible high level ultrasonic test signal at e.g. 21KHz.
That jitter would (also) cause an audible 3KHz beating tone (24KHz - 21KHz = 3KHz, see also below), when the jitter is high enough.
3KHz was targeted, because the ear is most sensitive in that range.

Just like to repeat that this is a theoretical scenario, trying to determine some spec boundaries for an unquestionable DAC-clock, without having all the measuring eqt. available...

Further assuming you have a nice stereo, which is capable of generating some 105-110dB of max. SPL in your listening position, that 3KHz tone may become audible above -110dB below electrical full scale of the DAC (top notch ears required, mine probably less good performing...).

Now here comes the improved thought experiment´s idea how to calculate a boundary jitter value.
Periodic jitter can be seen as a phase (or frequency) modulation, where fortunately some pre-solved equations can be applied.
I used these nicely explained ones from the University of St. Andrews in Scotland: https://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/RadCom/part12/page1.html
This case relates to narrow band frequency modulation math, i. e. a small modulation-factor Beta, but with a high modulation frequency in this case (I found no mathematical reasons, why this shouldn´t be applicable).
For a small Beta, the crucial Bessel function factors determine the amplitudes of the "carrier frequency" (which shall be the test signal - becomes 1) and the "difference tone" (which represents the 3KHz tone - becomes Beta/2).
Beta divided by 2pi x testfrequency equals to a peak jitter value. From there onwards -110dB of the beating tone amplitude equal to 1/316K fraction of the ultrasonic test signal. This factor equals to the a. m. Beta/2 amplitude, resulting in peak jitter of 42ps, which is about 30psrms.

Considering a typical jitter performance from a crystal oscillator (e. g. a TCXO) in the range of 1 to a few ps @ 100MHz (assuming the well discussed ESS9018 DAC chip clock), it is well below practical audibility.

If you leave the listening position and come really close to the speaker, you are able to hear that tone at much lower levels (maybe a factor of 20 or more), that´s why I think so called femto-second clocks are discussed and marketed...and also why Amir mentoned that DAC clocks should be as close as possible to the DAC-chip, because any foreign electric or magnetic field will induce addtional jitter.

In addition to the pure clock jitter, one can assume that the dividers in the DAC chip also cause jitter. Therefore digital chip design appears to be at least as important as the clock jitter itself. I didn´t design DA-converters so far (with the exception of a 50Hz DAC to control motor speed of my Thorens TT), but I guess that high speed synchronous on-chip dividers and careful chip layout are essential...One interesting thing seems to follow, i. e. the higher the DAC´s clock frequency, the less jitter may be expected.


Hope I got the assumptions and the calc right this time!

Actually, when playing a -20dB full range sine wave sweep on my old TEAC VRDS-10 CD-player, one can hear a very quiet beating tone, when the sweep frequency has already become inaudible, wonder if this relates to this effect? My SPDIF-driven ESS9018-based DAC stays clean at ultrasonic, when playing that 16/44 file!


One late remark,
I have to correct myself, regarding the beating tones heard on my old Teac VRDS-10, which are also audible, with same intensity, using the 9018-based DAC via Toslink.
Utilising the same measurement CD with an external CD-drive on the PC-based player does not exibit these beating tones.
So the measurement CD and the DAC seem to be clean.
The next suspect would be Sony´s CXD2500AQ signal processor in front of the Toslink output and the internal DAC...
This finding also relativises the old (and widespread) claim, improving such an old CD player by adding an external DAC...
 
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Veri

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Check out the new Gustard master clock: https://www.shenzhenaudio.com/gustard-c16-10m-clock-audio-clock-ocxo.html
It has two output modes, "direct" and "isolated", ok... then there is the selector on the front:

zqJZxPf.png

You can choose between 'Vivid' and 'Gentle' clock, lol. what is this I don't even
 

pierre

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Cortes

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This guy is 100% on the effect of clocks

there's something that does not fit here. The guy is very experienced in audio, and certainly not silly. However, it's so difficult to rationally believe clocks for normal use will make any difference. Human hearing is not that fine.
 

j_j

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There were, in the past, quite some DAC's that did not properly recover the sampling clock. This is even more pronounced when a DAC is a delta-sigma DAC, running at 256x or something of that sort.

Having said that, Telcos figured this out in the 1950's.
 

RayDunzl

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When I saw that you are located in FL, I immediately thought of the company I worked for, also located in Boca Raton, where such development took place during that timeframe...

Qtera?
 

eliash

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...since you mentioned voice related telco stuff, I thought about Siemens and its EWSD voice switch...I did FO development in Germany and the US for that company...anyway, a long time ago...now, long distance FO manufacturers merge, since the addressable market shrinks...or should have technology finally outpaced demand???
 

RayDunzl

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Telecom is so fragmented now...

Cell phone networks, routing calls to wherever the phone is, cell phone over wi-fi, VOIP (like Skype), still some traditional landlines over copper loops, phones on TV cable providers, I have no idea how they manage all of it anymore.

How is routing handled? You used to dial a number and the network knew where to send the call... it was fixed. But you can't route just by "phone number" any more. There must be secondary databases that keep up with current locations/ip addresses. But who keeps up with which cell tower a phone is currently talking to? And make that information available to all users on demand? And keep records so the FBI can investigate. Crazy stuff.

I haven't had to worry about it since about 1992, so, whatever I knew is long gone...
 
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Arpiben

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I want my master clock to be National Research Council Canada's atomic clocks.

Failing that, well, I could always go for an atomic watch.

wrist-5071a1.jpg


It's got fashionable, replaceable wrist straps too!
Quite heavy watch! ;)
HP5071a PRC Primary Reference Clock (Cesium) was weighting around 30kg. Microsemi is now the owner but I seriously doubt they reduce its weight.
 

scott wurcer

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Audio playing .01% slower or faster doesn't matter (ask all the analog LP lovers with such variations).

Just for amusement (I have been working on an open source Python script for cartridge alignment) this the a plot of the phase drift (in degrees) vs time of the 1kHz test tone on a good test LP. This is a 45RPM one so 4 sec = 3 rev and the off center effects are clearly visible as well as 0.08% slowness.

phased.jpg
 

DonH56

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mactrix

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Only people who sell clocks would recommend them. It's the mother of snake oil. Even power filters are more useful (assuming your hifi setup runs on a diesel power generator).

Clocks are complete nonsense and waste of money in playback environments. They are also not required in pure digital setups as digital syncs automatically internally. Only complex studios with complex Analog-to-Digital conversions might require a master clock. Those people remembering the master clocks in broadcast studios probably retired in the late 90s. Things have changed their too with SDI, AES and digital all over.

https://www.soundonsound.com/techniques/does-your-studio-need-digital-master-clock
 

eliash

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Just for amusement (I have been working on an open source Python script for cartridge alignment) this the a plot of the phase drift (in degrees) vs time of the 1kHz test tone on a good test LP. This is a 45RPM one so 4 sec = 3 rev and the off center effects are clearly visible as well as 0.08% slowness.

View attachment 43207

Actually, not looking too bad at all, the speed offset is still OK and the wow is probably due to record center hole misalignment.
Taking both away, the TT is only responsible for the little kinks in the graph, which is flutter and that looks quite good in relation...

Just installed a 2nd new RME ADI-2 fs (first one broken) ADDA-converter. Will look at such things as well with the PC from now on...
 

eliash

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Telecom is so fragmented now...

Cell phone networks, routing calls to wherever the phone is, cell phone over wi-fi, VOIP (like Skype), still some traditional landlines over copper loops, phones on TV cable providers, I have no idea how they manage all of it anymore.

How is routing handled? You used to dial a number and the network knew where to send the call... it was fixed. But you can't route just by "phone number" any more. There must be secondary databases that keep up with current locations/ip addresses. But who keeps up with which cell tower a phone is currently talking to? And make that information available to all users on demand? And keep records so the FBI can investigate. Crazy stuff.

I haven't had to worry about it since about 1992, so, whatever I knew is long gone...

Old EWSD could track that as well...and HiRes Audio is more fun now!
 

j_j

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Only people who sell clocks would recommend them. It's the mother of snake oil. Even power filters are more useful (assuming your hifi setup runs on a diesel power generator).

Having a word clock can be essential in multichannel recording wherein sample-accurate capture on all channels is required.

But that's not generally home playback. If you have 2-channel DAC's in a 7 channel system, though, you really had better have a way to sync those 4 sets of DAC's.

It's not QUITE as snake-oilish as you think.
 
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