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Master AI (Artificial Intelligence) Discussion/News Thread

So Google integrated Gemini into Maps....

I start Maps on Android on my phone in the car. Tell it where I want to go. Then I watch it echo that in text as it usually does. But then kept writing and writing! Couldn't figure out what the heck was going on. Then I realized, it was transcribing the talk show that was on the radio in my car!!! Stupid thing. I tried again and did it again. Had to turn off the radio to stop it. And even then, had to push a stop button as it would otherwise just sit there waiting for me to say more!

I am assuming the AI engine now wants to capture full conversations so kept listening. In the past, it would just stop when it got the address/place you wanted to go. I guess now I have to learn how to tell it to do the thing I use maps for at the end of each query. :(

I am convinced Google doesn't do any usability testing of its software. Something like this should have been caught in testing.
I've had that issue for a long time with speech to text in general.
 
I don't get the reference.

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Quite shocking how there is always a market of gullible people for the con artists to prey on. It is true today as it was back in the days.

Though anyone thinking that AI is a con or a fad then I'm afraid that they are not gullible but not sensible. The good news is that there will be no rude awakening, because they will slowly adopt AI, just like everyone eventually adopted the smartphone, including very old senior citizens. You will have no choice, because of what it is capable of and how life and society will forever change.
 
The narcissism and megalomania of the billionaire class is unbounded by self-awareness or a sense of cultural history. Why else would we behold Big Zucker?


*not really AI of course, like the rest of the hype train, even Arstechnica refers to the titular promise of something not yet invented.
 
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A friend in my photo group invited us to attempt to restore a badly damaged football team photo taken around 1910 (His 75 yo wife's grandfather is third from the left, middle row). Some attempted to do it manually to varying levels of success. One used phootshop, trying some of it's built in AI tools and the result was not bad. I decided to try just throwing it at Chat GPT. The first attempt was pretty good but it made the mistake of interpreting an oval shape of bad damage as a face (damage over the left arm of the guy sitting behind the cup), and put a person there, with the knees of the guys sat behind him emerging from his chest. It also messed up the text of the sign.

I tried a number of prompts telling it not to put anything in that area without success. Eventually I was forced to mask that area of damage using conventional tools before throwing it back at chat gpt. I also had to prompt other specific fixes (a moustache for one of the men - and how to create the text on the sign). I finally got something I think is pretty amazing - in terms of recreating the photo with pretty good rendering of the faces without significant changes. This level of repair I don[t think would be feasible at all using conventional tools. Here is a before and after.

original smaller.jpg


restore 3.png
 
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Here is a before and after.

Interesting result. No six digit hands, but it did bugger the hand on the bloke in the top row, third from the left. Looks like a skeleton hand. His face is quite different, also. What was the time investment in this like?
 
Interesting result. No six digit hands, but it did bugger the hand on the bloke in the top row, third from the left. Looks like a skeleton hand. His face is quite different, also. What was the time investment in this like?

That's Jim Hook. I heard he got into sailing after the hand injury. He never did like the sight of (his own) blood after that.
 
Looks like a skeleton hand.
I zoomed in on that - what you are seeing as skeletal fingers are acutally folds of the sleeve. His hand is tucked under his arm. But the colour and texture of the hand does seem to match the sleeve - and the proportions of the back of his hand are wrong.

Though most of that is reflected in the damage to the original.

The worst flaw IMO is the man in the middle behind the cup "has his hand tucked into his shorts". The damage completely obscured that arm and hand, and this is the result. That will best be fixed by cloning and mirroring his other arm using conventional tools. Trying to prompt the AI to make small corrections is a hiding to nothing, because it (at least chat gpt does) always regenerates the whole image.

I could probably do similar to fix the "skeletal" hand by cloning another hand from elsewhere in the image.



What was the time investment in this like?
I actually did it during our last zoom meeting of the group. Probably spread over about an hour and a half while also participating. If I'd been fully focussed I think it would have taken about half that time - 45 minutes or so.
 
When restoring a historical photo, making it look realistic is only one objective, it seems to me. Documenting the people who were at a time and place is also required for the photo to have any value beyond the merely aesthetic. What did your ancestor look like? Was he happy that day? Annoyed? Sad? If the AI engine is filling in blanks from its learning database, then you can have no faith that the details in the photo retain an indexical relationship to the subject of the photo. I see differences in a range of details, and differences in apparent expression. The people in the AI photo look like real people, but they don't look completely like the same people, or like those people looked at the instant the original photo was made.

So--with apologies--while technically impressive, for me it turns the photo into a fantasy and robs it of any historical or familial interest.

Rick "integrity has to start somewhere" Denney
 
When restoring a historical photo, making it look realistic is only one objective, it seems to me. Documenting the people who were at a time and place is also required for the photo to have any value beyond the merely aesthetic. What did your ancestor look like? Was he happy that day? Annoyed? Sad? If the AI engine is filling in blanks from its learning database, then you can have no faith that the details in the photo retain an indexical relationship to the subject of the photo. I see differences in a range of details, and differences in apparent expression. The people in the AI photo look like real people, but they don't look completely like the same people, or like those people looked at the instant the original photo was made.

So--with apologies--while technically impressive, for me it turns the photo into a fantasy and robs it of any historical or familial interest.

Rick "integrity has to start somewhere" Denney
I sort of agree - though looking at most of the faces where features are visible in the original, they seem recognisably the same person, with very similar expressions.


On the other hand, the photo includes the grandfather of the wife of the group member who provided the original image. She just wanted a version of the photo she can put on the wall showing the event with a reasonably accurate depiction of her grandfather. As far as she is concerned, mission accomplished** - or will be once I mod the "hand down the front of his shorts" guy.
:)

** to an extent I don't believe would be possible without the help of AI - or not in a manageable amount of time/effort for a personal objective.
 
I learned both a word & a concept today -- indexical.
:eek:
If the AI engine is filling in blanks from its learning database, then you can have no faith that the details in the photo retain an indexical relationship to the subject of the photo.
 
I learned both a word & a concept today -- indexical.
:eek:
Oh, there's no bottom to that pit.

I could have said, ala Barthes, that one cannot predict which detail in the photograph will become a "punctum" for the viewer, carrying some importance of meaning that subjectively extends beyond the objective appearance. "I remember the scar on the chin of my great-great-grandfather--everyone in the family talked about it and blah, blah, blah". But here's this photo that doesn't show it, because the AI engine though it was a scratch on the tin-type or something, or it didn't feature on the face that the AI engine was morphing to have the same shape as in the damaged photo. Maybe the AI engine wasn't a party to those bits of family lore that brought it extra meaning. Thus, the indexicality of the photo would be needed for the viewer to say, "There's the famous scar! The altercation that caused must have been before ____!"

Yes, that's a silly example, but it illustrates the point.

Barthes also talked about the "studium"--the objective facts presented in a photograph that describe its social, cultural, and historical context. AI that uses replacement strategies can mess that up, too, but it's less likely.

In semiotics, the relationship between a sign and the thing to which the sign refers is the indexical relationship, and photography enforces that relationship by the reality that the only marks on the photograph (the sign) were made by light emanating from the subject (the thing to which the sign refers). (Digital photography processes didn't change this, but it sure made it easier to mess it up.) That's what makes photography unique as an art form.

This is all important to me both as a photographer and as one who has carefully studied the relatively few photos that exist from my own family's past. I've restored a lot of old photos in my day, having established my digital darkroom all the way back to 1999. Keeping it real requires expertise to know what's photo and what isn't, and AI might be quite good at that. Or not. But as soon as it tries to fill in the blanks, the indexical relationship is lost.

Of course, AI isn't the only engine that can undermine indexicality. Even simple retouching can do that, though it is the photographer making the choice. What the AI engine does is make the result so realistic that it does not appear to have been retouched, but I can do that in Photoshop, too. The Photoshop rubber stamp tool (and, for that matter, the healing brush) are standard tools for retouching photos, and both do actually also undermine the indexical relationships. But photography has always depended on the integrity of the photographer (or the processes surrounding the photo that preserve the chain of evidence) for its claim on truth.

I had better shut up now before Paul Raphaelson comes after me for getting it all wrong.

Rick "who spent a year reading Roland Barthes one week" Denney
 
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@rdenney this is all both fascinating and way outta my league!

All's I got... is a sense that this indexical stuff is (might be?) related to the fairly well-accepted notion that paintings of birds are typically far more useful than photographs for identifying birds in the field, and most (though not all) field guides use paintings or drawings rather than photos. The blame is usually put on the illumination (quality, quantity, and direction) of the light and/or individual variation -- but it may go deeper than those parameters. :)

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male Northern Cardinal by David Sibley (for the past couple of decades, the big name in field guides, and an occasional birding companion of Mrs. H and her posse).

Rando photo of a Northern Cardinal male:

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less random photo of a phalanx of midwinter cardinals of both sexes ;)



As an aside, and you almost certainly know this: bluebirds, indigo buntings, and blue jays are not blue. Their feathers contain no blue pigment. They just look blue (light scattering). :)

 
To that end, while I was initially impressed with the sci-fi shorts created with AI engines, I was disappointed that none included any spoken words. It seemed that was hard to do. That issue was solved for me last night when Youtube suggested this channel that is full of musical shorts with incredibly well done vocalization:


Not only do you see the internals of her mouth but in many of his clips, even the breathing is simulated. Incredible progress in just such short amount of time.

If anyone knows what tool is used here, please chime in.
Incredible probably Claude
 
When will we see audio video receivers or Pre/Peo incorporating AI so that it can do a better job than DIRAC Live or ANTHEM ARC Genesis or any other other of these softwares?
 
@rdenney this is all both fascinating and way outta my league!

All's I got... is a sense that this indexical stuff is (might be?) related to the fairly well-accepted notion that paintings of birds are typically far more useful than photographs for identifying birds in the field, and most (though not all) field guides use paintings or drawings rather than photos. The blame is usually put on the illumination (quality, quantity, and direction) of the light and/or individual variation -- but it may go deeper than those parameters. :)
...
The purpose of a field guide is to provide a comparison model for reference, and thus the expert drawing is designed to be a generality. A photograph of a particular bird is individual, because of indexicality. In the theoretical sense (thin ice alert!), the drawing lacks the punctums that would be interpreted in a special way by the viewer--it specifically avoids being special.

Rick "all models are false, though some are useful" Denney
 
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PS I wish that most raptors would unlearn that indexicality thing -- even Mrs. H struggles with their identification sometimes, and she's got birder cred.
 
A friend in my photo group invited us to attempt to restore a badly damaged football team photo taken around 1910 (His 75 yo wife's grandfather is third from the left, middle row). Some attempted to do it manually to varying levels of success. One used phootshop, trying some of it's built in AI tools and the result was not bad. I decided to try just throwing it at Chat GPT. The first attempt was pretty good but it made the mistake of interpreting an oval shape of bad damage as a face (damage over the left arm of the guy sitting behind the cup), and put a person there, with the knees of the guys sat behind him emerging from his chest. It also messed up the text of the sign.

I tried a number of prompts telling it not to put anything in that area without success. Eventually I was forced to mask that area of damage using conventional tools before throwing it back at chat gpt. I also had to prompt other specific fixes (a moustache for one of the men - and how to create the text on the sign). I finally got something I think is pretty amazing - in terms of recreating the photo with pretty good rendering of the faces without significant changes. This level of repair I don[t think would be feasible at all using conventional tools. Here is a before and after.

View attachment 524495

View attachment 524496


Quite good. I've done some similar (not quite that old/damaged), and have found the same type of conditions present as in your output -> where/when it has to compose, it becomes lazy - notice how all of the eyebrows and chins are very similar - understandable given the input it gets, but it could at least try to create variation. Yes I would like fries with that.
 
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