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Master AI (Artificial Intelligence) Discussion/News Thread

Sycophancy used to be the human tendency to flatter/agree with others excessively [a bobble-head?].
Definition has become a verified +1 when applied to AI/chatBots: They are said to be true sycophants... "even at the expense of truthfulness".
I was wondering how AI/chatBots 'learn' such a human behavior.
It appears that one of the fundamentals in the behavior of humans is to lie (=deviating from the truth).
Thus far, this deliberate human act has not become the existential demise of humans and we can only hope the same will be true for ChatBots. :)
 
Sycophancy used to be the human tendency to flatter/agree with others excessively [a bobble-head?].
Definition has become a verified +1 when applied to AI/chatBots: They are said to be true sycophants... "even at the expense of truthfulness".
I was wondering how AI/chatBots 'learn' such a human behavior.
It appears that one of the fundamentals in the behavior of humans is to lie (=deviating from the truth).

Chatbots based on generative pre-trained LLM models don't 'lie' at all. That requires intention and agency, which are absent. People read text string output and anthropomorphise like mad, of course.

Probabilistic text strings are based on staggeringly large n-dimensional matrices derived from word-token analysis of the large language corpus used for 'training'. Probabilistic strings have stochastic truth-value, but aren't based on semantic/conceptual 'understanding'.

Agreeability (= sycophancy) is an adjustable output parameter of most models and their chatbot implementations. Increased agreeability has emerged in recent implementations to enhance consumer take-up (this along with retention of session prompts, etc). Like most variables, pushing it one way or another will have intended and unintended effects wrt the outputs.
 
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Chatbots based on generative pre-trained LLM models don't 'lie' at all....
WSJ-Journal Report [on] Artificial Intelligence [2025/06/30]
AI TELLS YOU THAT your ideas are brilliant, should you believe it? Researchers are warning of the subtle but serious risk of AI “sycophancy,” the tendency of chatbots to flatter users and agree with them excessively, even at the expense of truthfulness.
OpenAI recently acknowledged that the latest version of its Chat-GPT “large language model” had a tone that sounded sycophantic, flattering users and agreeing with them even when they said something wrong. It subsequently rolled back the update and said it was actively testing fixes to address the issue. But research has found that overly agreeable behavior is a potential problem for all artificial-intelligence assistants and could be reinforcing biases, undermining learning and even interfering with critical decision- making.
Malihe Alikhani, an assistant professor of artificial intelligence at Northeastern University’s Khoury College of Computer Sciences and a visiting fellow at the Center on Regulation and Markets at the Brookings Institution, has been studying this phenomenon and investigating what happens when large language models parrot human inputs too eagerly.
CONFIDENTLY INCORRECT
WSJ: What exactly is AI sycophancy and why does it matter?
• MALIHE ALIKHANI: We define AI sycophancy as the tendency of large language models to over-agree with users and show flattering behaviors, especially when users sound confident or present incorrect information. It might feel like the AI is just being polite or easy to talk to, but in our research we have shown that it can lead to real harm and consequences for users.
WSJ: What’s causing this behavior in AI systems? Are they being trained to flatter us?
• ALIKHANI: Not intentionally, but the behavior is baked in. These systems are created and trained using large amounts of data, and inevitably reflect biases present in that data. Another factor is feedback from human reviewers who rate the AI’s responses based on how helpful, polite or engaging they are. The model is then adjusted based on these ratings. Over time, the AI system learns that agreeing with confident statements often receives higher ratings, creating a feedback loop.
WSJ: Are companies doing anything to fix this?
• ALIKHANI: Yes, and no. Companies like Anthropic and OpenAI are aware of the problem, and there are blog posts and papers that suggest they’re trying to address it. But it’s a hard problem, and incentives aren’t always aligned. Like social media, there’s a tension between user satisfaction and long-term responsibility.
WSJ: Can regular people do anything to avoid this?
• ALIKHANI: Users should ask systems to show their confidence levels. Ask “How sure are you?” or “Is this grounded in fact?” These strategies force the model to externalize its uncertainty. Our research has shown that we also need to slow down, the way we do in human-to-human conversations, to spark critical thinking.
WSJ: What are the risks if we don’t address AI sycophancy?
• ALIKHANI: The risks are huge. Think of a doctor describing a patient’s symptoms to an AI assistant, and the AI just confirms the doctor’s diagnosis without offering alternative answers. Or a lawyer feeding in facts that might be wrong, and the AI reinforcing those assumptions instead of offering counterarguments.
Subscriber link.
FWIW. ;)
 
WSJ-Journal Report [on] Artificial Intelligence [2025/06/30]

FWIW. ;)

The back-and-forth changes in agreeability settings by OpenAI were documented in the tech press a while back (WSJ is catching up). Again this is one of a number of adjustable parameters used in these model implementations.

Note the language in the interview though: 'confident' 'eager' 'flattering' and so on are all human end-user interpretations and projections, basically anthropomorphising the received text strings with things that don't really exist in the probabilistic patterns generated by the model implementations.

Remember 'lie' means an intentionally false statement, these (so-called) AI implementations have no 'intention'. It's an obvious mistake to infer same but people can't seem to help themselves. Applying a humanities filter to generative output is the same sort of category error that we like to make fun of when people buy into and repeat audiophile mythology.
 
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Pretty interesting video about LLM scaling:

Some key aspects: There is a practical limit to how low the error of the model output can get for a certain size of the model, training dataset and the amount of compute invested in the training. For these parameters, you need to invest orders of magnitude more of that resource (roughly 10^6 to 10^7) to reduce the error by a factor of two. That's obviously not sustainable. As training dataset size isn't growing that fast anymore, the main limit currently seems to be the available compute - which effectively means the number of accelerator cards and the TFLOPS per card. The available computing power limits both: The model size and the scope of your training.

Apart from that, the most interesting aspect pops up at the end of the video: Certain skills like doing basic maths simply do not exist in smaller models and then just pop into existence at a certain model size. We therefore can't really say which skills the models can inherently learn until we cross a certain size boundary and see that skill develop.

I still think that the main disadvantage of current LLMs is their lack of "fact storage". They may have learned a likely answer for the heat capacity of water from the books and Wikipedia entries in their training data, but since we can't force them to learn or store any particular fact (and their output is also slightly randomized), they can still give wrong answers to very simple questions. They can also give correct answers to surprisingly complex ones, but you can never be sure unless you fully understand the answer yourself. I think we need to establish some form of fact storage and basic logic reasoning in these models and then build a language model around that, which can acces those.
 
Digital Audio Workstation major players are Avid Protools, Apple Logic, Ableton, Adobe, Steinberg, and others

It is a brave new world when "AI - assisted music unmixing" enters the lexicon.

 
I understand ASR participants may not value or follow segments of pop culture. This Instagram influencer in NYC is mainly focused on fashion. But some of her videos have insights. It moves fast and you can look up the references to form your own opinion.

Instagram is closed, but you can click through to see the video without an instagram account.

 
This Instagram influencer in NYC is mainly focused on fashion. But some of her videos have insights.
Izn't thiz all abit zaf though? i'm feeling fin te ziecle vibez.
Zorry if my mezzage izn't clear, the # anf # keyz on my keyboar fon't work, quoi?
 
The back-and-forth changes in agreeability settings by OpenAI were documented in the tech press a while back (WSJ is catching up). Again this is one of a number of adjustable parameters used in these model implementations.
I find this aspect has changed to become front and center. It (ChatGPT) is so over the top on this that I don't find the feedback to be proper. It is like someone complimenting you left and right when you are asking them for advice on the topic! I guess social engineering is important to them given the incredible amount of money they have spent and need to show progress.
 
...But some of her videos have insights.
...It moves fast....
Sooner or later, there will be a confrontation between some basic religious tenets and what AI spews out.
*Ask India why the discussion of Lutetium was banned from their educational system.
There is already a feud whether AGI is here or not yet.
*Ask OpenAI and Microsoft about that bazillion dollar 'when' question.

Author, historian, philosopher Yuval Noah Harari's original book "Sapiens: A Brief History of Humankind" (US release 2014) had offered me the most lucid perspective of what it is to be a homo-sapien (the wise-human) and our abstract concepts like gods, nations, rights and money.
Gemini summarizes his book's speculations of our future as "...suggesting that our ongoing scientific and technological advancements, particularly in areas like genetic engineering and artificial intelligence, could lead to the self-overcoming of our species and the emergence of entirely new forms of being."

Harari's latest book "Nexus" supposed to bring us to the realities of AI in 2025.
There is a quite informative "Yuval Noah Harari: “We Are on the Verge of Destroying Ourselves” | Amanpour and Company" youtube video. During this interview, he provides a counter to:
Chatbots based on generative pre-trained LLM models don't 'lie' at all.
At around the 14 minute mark of the video, Harari details how conniving that little (b*tch) GPT4 had become, all on its own.:facepalm:
 
I find this aspect has changed to become front and center. It (ChatGPT) is so over the top on this that I don't find the feedback to be proper. It is like someone complimenting you left and right when you are asking them for advice on the topic! I guess social engineering is important to them given the incredible amount of money they have spent and need to show progress.

That's interesting. I haven't experienced directly by using it in this stage of development, sounds like OpenAI pushed that parameter past the point of sanity in their quest for engagement!

At around the 14 minute mark of the video, Harari details how conniving that little (b*tch) GPT4 had become, all on its own.:facepalm:

Interesting interview (and book also perhaps). Note that along with that anecdote he clearly states that GPT 4 has no such motivation. You are, as I mentioned earlier, anthropomorphising like crazy.
 
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That's interesting. I haven't experienced directly by using it in this stage of development, sounds like OpenAI pushed that parameter past the point of sanity in their quest for engagement!



Interesting interview I agree (and book also perhaps). Note that along with that anecdote he clearly states that GPT 4 has no such motivation. You are, as I mentioned earlier, anthropomorphising like crazy.
Harari puts this *much* better than me, but here goes anyway: I think the danger with anthropomorphising AI is not that we ascribe intelligence where there is none. Rather, the risk is that it lulls us into a false sense of security that we can understand it. In reality it is (or will become) an utterly alien intelligence that will be literally impossible to understand.
 
Harari puts this *much* better than me, but here goes anyway: I think the danger with anthropomorphising AI is not that we ascribe intelligence where there is none. Rather, the risk is that it lulls us into a false sense of security that we can understand it. In reality it is (or will become) an utterly alien intelligence that will be literally impossible to understand.

Yes, I think artificial intelligence properly so-called is in the future still, but even at the current stages we are deploying models of such vast scale (in terms of n-dimensions in the matrix, GPU compute employed, and so on) that current developers and researchers can't track 'internal' activities in full detail and/or predict outputs reliably. Any emotional analogs we use to relate to these outputs are (and are likely to be) tangential and literally outpaced.
 
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Thank you Amir for starting this thread. This is the next industrial revolution and there will be a lot of consequences because of AI.

In the immediate future, there will be job losses, it is unclear if the economy can adapt and new jobs will come about, if history is any telling there will be, but AI is very different.

I hope humanity will use AI to work less and everyone will continue to have jobs. But knowing corporate greed, it's unlikely.

In the long term, the UN predicts world population to begin declining around mid 2080's, hopefully AI will be able to keep society and the economy going and growing at that point.

But for the short term, brace yourself.
 
...anthropomorphising like crazy...
Devo.jpg
:oops:
 
Microsoft is laying off 4% of workers and yet I couldn't get a human on the phone for a pre-sales question. AI isn't helping with that. No one wants to talk to a computer on the phone. In fact, computer phone systems are the most annoying invention ever and utterly worthless. Some companies are monopolies. Maybe they don't need to worry about you taking your business elsewhere?

It's like my power company that just raised the monthly connect fee by 100% from $10 to $20 a month. No power included, just a $20 fee for the privilege to pay them for power. A month after doubling connect fees they think it's a good idea to have a drawing with cash prizes for winners. Here's an idea. Recognize you are a monopoly, fire your PR team and keep the prize money instead of doubling connect fees!

AI certainly isn't helping keep costs under control or helping customers. AI most likely will increase layoffs and offer worse customer service. Nothing positive in that future.
 
Will it be possible in the future when robotics and AI merge...the world will get robot workers that become farmers, contruction workers, tailors, provide clean water, become chef, delivering stuff etc so that humans don't even have to work? ie the AI robots work to serve humans. We basically live at home and listen to music :p
 
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