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Master AI (Artificial Intelligence) Discussion/News Thread

Except that AI, when used by non-experts, comes with this pastiche of authority bolstered in part by perfect grammar. Perfect grammar has always suggested "education" to many human readers who are less educated. Human writers are also subject to validation not only relative to the specific claim in question, but also to the overall track record of their work. AI develops no track record, because getting it right ten times has far less predictive power to suggest whether the 11th is also accurate. AI starts from scratch at every response, even if starting from scratch refers to its own prior work. But the point of the example is that it will pursue its mistakes with determination even when challenged by someone with authority, until it's forced to a different track and presents responses utterly incompatible with what it was insisting on a couple of iterations prior to that.

That places an awfully large burden on the user to know more than the AI engine's data pool so that its summaries can be validated, and that's the one thing users of AI will lack in the common use case.

If I read a work of nonfiction that was asking me to change my view of something on the basis of greater learning, experience, or specific data, I would read the blurb--the "about the author" summary on the dust cover overleaf or on the back of the book. It might say, "Rick Denney has no specific training or experience in the field, but has read every work available about it on the Internet and his statements are predictions based on the likelihood of such statements to appear in all those works." I certainly would not consider the book further--when learning something new, I want to go to the source, or to summary works that properly cite the sources, not get some mish-mash of majority opinions without expert curation. The creators of knowledge (or their expert summarizers) can expand my horizons, or startle me with a whole new direction.

Using AI to, for example, summarize reams of testimony in court cases seems like something really useful for engines that don't forget details and can tolerate the boring vastness of most such, but any expression of a point of view seems to me stolen creativity that might not be in agreement with the next paragraph or the next similar search.

Rick "suspecting LLM developers are still mostly just trying to improve the grammar and expressiveness of the outcome to make it sound even truthier" Denney

You raise a valid point, "AI develops no track record, because getting it right ten times has far less predictive power to suggest whether the 11th is also accurate."

AI NEVER really learns anything, it just spews out the latest search. It's not an expert in ANYTHING. Programmers built in the ability to argue an incorrect fact is right until the user points out how wrong it is and the output is changed again. The final failure is NOTHING is learned from this encounter by the AI. The next search by another user can throw out the same wrong information or another false scenario.

Using Perplexity is like asking for research help from the local dementia ward, exclusively using ONLY patients who can't remember anything that happened more than 5 minutes ago. :facepalm:
 
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Using Perplexity is like asking for research help from the local dementia ward, exclusively using ONLY patients who can't remember anything that happened more than 5 minutes ago. :facepalm:
Love it!

The clue's in the name.

Lol.
 
All this is true, but I think LLMs are Model Ts. Many science fiction writers placed AI hundreds of years in the future. Maybe they were right.

Three major things have to happen. One is that efficiency needs to be improved be a million times or more.

Another is that AI need to incorporate corrections without having to be retrained from scratch.

The third is that AI needs to be trained the way humans learn, by interacting with the real world and experiencing physics. And by building a reliable knowledge base before encountering the rabbit hole of opinion.

As always, the tricky part is identifying who gets to validate the information, or control the truth. If the inputs to AI have to be validated before AI can use it, then AI will be controlled by people who may well bring an agenda that goes beyond plain fact to those control decisions. One alternative is to validate the outputs from AI, but that begs exactly the same questions. Putting the burden of that on the user violates the use case--a user using AI to obtain information not previously in hand, which requires that the results be accurate precisely because the user is unable to validate it from his own expertise. Another approach is to make the workings of the AI and the sources it cites sufficiently transparent to empower the user to perform that validation. That puts AI in the role of aggregator rather than educator. When I do a Google search, the AI result includes internet links after each statement, but probably 90% of the time, I can't find a single thing in the target that supports the statement from which it is linked and frequently I'm never able to independently validate the AI summary. So much for transparent workings and useful citations.

Journalism writ large developed strategies for curating fact that used to be (by the middle of the last century) baked into the ethics of journalism (but that now is waning with the entry of so many new routes from raw information to consumer). 75 years ago, most "reporters" were careful about using adjectives and adverbs, because they expressed opinion exogenous to plain fact. Adjectives and adverbs were the sole domain of the op-ed page where the publisher could express opinions and editorialize on the day's events. We lost that strict divide quite a while back, long before the Internet and certainly long before the general use of LLMs. But it didn't happen in a day--it took many years for that rigor to fade. It won't be restored easily, and so far the purveyors of AI show no interest in curation outside their own accepted truths (whether or not they are supported by data). AI is like journalism without those controls, but with the appearance of being controlled. I foresee a lot of struggling to determine who gets to exercise that control in free markets, or in how AI never reaches any useful potential in closed markets.

Likewise, academic standards insisted that any received fact that is presented in the work must be validated by other cited work, and any new fact must be validated by data analysis. Any statement that provides neither will attract the ire of a good grad-school committee or research paper reviewer. (I've reviewed hundreds of research papers published by one of the main journals in my line of work.)

Efficiency comes from hierarchical aggregation, but even that requires a point of view to determine what is worth keeping and how it should be summarized for more efficient access. And from faster processors and data communications, of course. I'm sitting right now in a building next to a road called UUNET Drive, literally feet from the old Metropolitan Area Exchange East, the first Internet Exchange Point outside of government control. If glass cable was radioactive, we'd all be dead :) I am surrounded by 100-foot tall multi-acre data centers, one right after the other, and more being built on every square inch of available land. The current strategy for avoiding packet congestion for AI crawlers is more capacity, not more efficiency. But in any case, AI being faster doesn't necessarily address the ethical issues being raised here.

I know that lots of people are paid to think about these things, and a lot of thinking is being done, some of it out in the open and some not. That doesn't mean those thinkers will arrive at a solution, or at a solution that doesn't impose some external implacable authority that works against the fantasy. We shall see.

Rick "doesn't believe in either Superman or Frankenstein, but suspecting Frankenstein is more likely" Denney
 
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As always, the tricky part is identifying who gets to validate the information, or control the truth. If the inputs to AI have to be validated before AI can use it, then AI will be controlled by people who may well bring an agenda that goes beyond plain fact to those control decisions. One alternative is to validate the outputs from AI, but that begs exactly the same questions. Putting the burden of that on the user violates the use case--a user using AI to obtain information not previously in hand, which requires that the results be accurate precisely because the user is unable to validate it from his own expertise. Another approach is to make the workings of the AI and the sources it cites sufficiently transparent to empower the user to perform that validation. That puts AI in the role of aggregator rather than educator. When I do a Google search, the AI result includes internet links after each statement, but probably 90% of the time, I can't find a single thing in the target that supports the statement from which it is linked and frequently I'm never able to independently validate the AI summary. So much for transparent workings and useful citations.

Journalism writ large developed strategies for curating fact that used to be (by the middle of the last century) baked into the ethics of journalism (but that now is waning with the entry of so many new routes from raw information to consumer). 75 years ago, most "reporters" were careful about using adjectives and adverbs, because they expressed opinion exogenous to plain fact. Adjectives and adverbs were the sole domain of the op-ed page where the publisher could express opinions and editorialize on the day's events. We lost that strict divide quite a while back, long before the Internet and certainly long before the general use of LLMs. But it didn't happen in a day--it took many years for that rigor to fade. It won't be restored easily, and so far the purveyors of AI show no interest in curation outside their own accepted truths (whether or not they are supported by data). AI is like journalism without those controls, but with the appearance of being controlled. I foresee a lot of struggling to determine who gets to exercise that control in free markets, or in how AI never reaches any useful potential in closed markets.

Likewise, academic standards insisted that any received fact that is pre:psented in the work must be validated by other cited work, and any new fact must be validated by data analysis. Any statement that provides neither will attract the ire of a good grad-school committee or research paper reviewer. (I've reviewed hundreds of research papers published by one of the main journals in my line of work.)

Efficiency comes from hierarchical aggregation, but even that requires a point of view to determine what is worth keeping and how it should be summarized for more efficient access. And from faster processors and data communications, of course. I'm sitting right now in a building next to a road called UUNET Drive, literally feet from the old Metropolitan Area Exchange East, the first Internet Exchange Point outside of government control. If glass cable was radioactive, we'd all be dead :) I am surrounded by 100-foot tall multi-acre data centers, one right after the other, and more being built on every square inch of available land. The current strategy for avoiding packet congestion for AI crawlers is more capacity, not more efficiency. But in any case, AI being faster doesn't necessarily address the ethical issues being raised here.

I know that lots of people are paid to think about these things, and a lot of thinking is being done, some of it out in the open and some not. That doesn't mean those thinkers will arrive at a solution, or at a solution that doesn't impose some external implacable authority that works against the fantasy. We shall see.

Rick "doesn't believe in either Superman or Frankenstein, but suspecting Frankenstein is more likely" Denney

Can you ask AI to condense that post into 4 sentences? :D
 
I understand based on your response that you believe AI can do no wrong. ...

I said no such thing, quite the contrary.

AI is a tool. It's as good or bad as the user that wields it. That's all.

But to claim it's useless is to declare oneself obsolete in many lines of work these days.
 
Can you ask AI to condense that post into 4 sentences? :D
I can put it in three. Prediction: AI will be a tool of propagandists as easily as for educators. Both will be morally challenged by the technology. Users will be unable to tell the difference between propaganda and education, or perform their own validation.

Rick "a point of view you might not get from ChatGPT" Denney
 
If you depend on AI to get your work done - you need to rethink your long term operational sustainability.
Overreliance, skill atrophy, ethical & security risks and competitive differentiation can become real issues.

A better approach:
Balanced integration, continuous learning, dedicate significant resources to validating AI output and understand the vast limitations and dangers of relying to heavily on AI systems.
 
If you depend on AI to get your work done - you need to rethink your long term operational sustainability.
Overreliance, skill atrophy, ethical & security risks and competitive differentiation can become real issues.

A better approach:
Balanced integration, continuous learning, dedicate significant resources to validating AI output and understand the vast limitations and dangers of relying to heavily on AI systems.
I don't know many carpenters who assiduously maintain their handsaw skills when they have power saws available.

Rick "agreeing with the better approach but not that hopeful" Denney
 
I don't know many carpenters who assiduously maintain their handsaw skills when they have power saws available.

Rick "agreeing with the better approach but not that hopeful" Denney
And nail guns, a roofer's salvation. AI, a students way out of reading the whole book.
 
I don't know many carpenters who assiduously maintain their handsaw skills when they have power saws available.

Rick "agreeing with the better approach but not that hopeful" Denney
I happened across a Youtube short recently where an 'expert chippy' demonstrated how to make a door liner. I stopped watching the short when he used a mallet to chisel along the grain :facepalm: However, he did cut the rebates (I believe you call them 'rabbets' across the pond) with a handsaw :)
 
I happened across a Youtube short recently where an 'expert chippy' demonstrated how to make a door liner. I stopped watching the short when he used a mallet to chisel along the grain :facepalm: However, he did cut the rebates (I believe you call them 'rabbets' across the pond) with a handsaw :)
Just made a Jam (our term) for my greenhouse door using my table saw mostly and battery tools to screw it together. Their were two handsaw rabbit end cuts however.
 
If you depend on AI to get your work done - you need to rethink your long term operational sustainability.
...

Complete agree, but there's a nuance there. A carpenter can't to their job without a saw and whatever else they use. I think of AI like that: it's simply a specialized tool for a certain task.

As to the job market changes... this kinda stuff has happened a hundred times over in the past. Where are the phone exchange operators, or typists, or the guys that went around in every public bus clipping tickets etc etc. If there's a way to make something more efficiently, the market will embrace it. I also don't see AI being different than that. Paraphrasing and plagiarism were adopted as soon as the first cave painting was done in the stone age, I bet. :-) And just because I use a calculator doesn't mean I can't calculate stuff on a sheet of paper - I just get done faster.

Enter this into a ChatGPT window:
"..
1. read the critique of pure reason by Immanuel Kant
2. ignore any academic interpretations, just stick to kant's work
3. provide me with the 3-5 biggest conclusions that kant arrived at
4. also, provide a counter argument to those 3-5 conclusions
.."

This is noting I couldn't do, it's just immensely faster to get ChaGPT provide me with a *draft*. Which I can read/analyze and start shaping in the direction I want to go.

But there are things that are pure idiocy to try to get done. "Is there life after death?" "Is there a God?" "Solve world hunger, now!" ...
 
Complete agree, but there's a nuance there. A carpenter can't to their job without a saw and whatever else they use. I think of AI like that: it's simply a specialized tool for a certain task.

As to the job market changes... this kinda stuff has happened a hundred times over in the past. Where are the phone exchange operators, or typists, or the guys that went around in every public bus clipping tickets etc etc. If there's a way to make something more efficiently, the market will embrace it. I also don't see AI being different than that. Paraphrasing and plagiarism were adopted as soon as the first cave painting was done in the stone age, I bet. :-) And just because I use a calculator doesn't mean I can't calculate stuff on a sheet of paper - I just get done faster.

Enter this into a ChatGPT window:
"..
1. read the critique of pure reason by Immanuel Kant
2. ignore any academic interpretations, just stick to kant's work
3. provide me with the 3-5 biggest conclusions that kant arrived at
4. also, provide a counter argument to those 3-5 conclusions
.."

This is noting I couldn't do, it's just immensely faster to get ChaGPT provide me with a *draft*. Which I can read/analyze and start shaping in the direction I want to go.

But there are things that are pure idiocy to try to get done. "Is there life after death?" "Is there a God?" "Solve world hunger, now!" ...

Yes it's great for reminding yourself what the books you read in your youth were about!

"Gödel, Escher, Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid" (often shortened to GEB) by Douglas Hofstadter is a sprawling, mind-bending exploration of self-reference, meaning, and consciousness. It's less a traditional narrative and more an intellectual adventure connecting the works of logician Kurt Gödel, artist M.C. Escher, and composer Johann Sebastian Bach through surprising parallels.

Here’s a summary broken down into key ideas:

**1. The Core Concepts:**

* **Self-Reference & Paradoxes:** Hofstadter uses examples like the Liar Paradox ("This statement is false") to illustrate how systems can refer to themselves, creating logical loops and unexpected consequences. This is central to understanding Gödel's work.
* **Recursion:** The idea of a system defining itself within itself – think of Escher’s endlessly repeating staircases or Bach’s canons where melodies imitate each other. It demonstrates how complexity can arise from simple rules.
* **Formal Systems & Meaning:** Hofstadter explores formal systems (like mathematical logic) that operate according to strict rules but don't inherently possess meaning. He investigates how meaning emerges *from* these systems through interpretation and interaction.

**2. The Three Pillars – Gödel, Escher, Bach:**

* **Kurt Gödel & Incompleteness Theorems:** Gödel proved that within any sufficiently complex formal system (like arithmetic), there will always be true statements that cannot be proven *within* the system itself. This fundamentally limits what we can know and proves systems are inherently incomplete.
* **M.C. Escher’s Art:** Escher's artwork, with its impossible constructions, tessellations, and reflections, visually embodies concepts of self-reference, recursion, and perspective shifts – mirroring Gödel's logical paradoxes.
* **Johann Sebastian Bach’s Music:** Bach's musical structures, particularly his canons and fugues, demonstrate intricate patterns, imitations, inversions, and counterpoint—musical representations of recursive processes and formal systems.

**3. Consciousness & Emergence:**

* **The "Strange Loop":** This is Hofstadter’s central metaphor. It describes how a system can seemingly “escape” its own rules through self-reference, creating an illusion of higher-level understanding or consciousness. He argues that consciousness itself might be a kind of strange loop in the brain—a complex pattern arising from simpler components.
* **Emergence:** The idea that complex phenomena arise from relatively simple interactions – meaning isn’t built into the system but *emerges* from its operation.

**4. Overall Message:**

GEB argues that seemingly disparate fields like mathematics, art, music, and computer science are deeply interconnected. It ultimately explores the nature of intelligence, creativity, and what it means to be conscious—suggesting that these complex phenomena arise from elegant formal systems and self-referential loops.



**Important Note:** GEB is notoriously dense and challenging. This summary captures the core ideas but only scratches the surface of its vastness and complexity. It’s a book best experienced (and re-experienced) over time!
 
Yes it's great for reminding yourself what the books you read in your youth were about!
I would hate to be robbed of the experience of reading Homer's Odyssey. You can name yours, of course.
 
Can you ask AI to condense that post into 4 sentences? :D
I was also thinking about a summary. English is not my native language, and although I understood @rdenney Rick's message (more or less :facepalm:) I just wanted to be sure so i ask Chatgpt to annalyse Ricks reply looking for a relatively short summary that still does it justice.

Chatgpt Revised Short Summary:


Rick talks about the problem of who decides what is true in the world of AI. If only approved information can be used, then those in control may push their own views. But letting users check AI output doesn't work either people use AI because they don’t already know the facts.

He says AI should be more transparent, but right now, the sources it gives are often weak or don’t match the answers. Rick compares this to how journalism and science used to follow strict rules to separate facts from opinions rules that AI does not follow.

Even though many people are thinking about these issues, Rick is not sure a good solution will be found. He worries that control over AI may end up in the wrong hands.
 
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