Markaudio CHN 110 building and comparisons with Genelec 8340 SAM monitors

[MAB]

A little bit of digital EQ ain’t gonna hurt anyone. I don’t understand why some of you avoid it all costs yet are fine with passive analog filters.

I'm confused since @Tangband was telling me about how passive filters intrinsically sound worse than DSP filters:

Active DSP DIY speakers, for testing a few ideas

FFLOTSAM (Fabricated From LeftOver Things Studio Active Monitor) Active DSP speakers, for testing a few ideas I had some stuff lying around; a few random Baltic Birch-ply panels, some countertop material, a few cans of partially used brown spray paint, and some not-too clumpy spar varnish (that...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Doubly odd since he was also telling me in no uncertain terms that drivers with resonances intrinsically sound worse than ones that measure flat.
Here we have drivers with dramatic resonant modes, covering frequencies including those resonances, plus directivity causing the famous off-axis dance to get the FR right. Certainly looks like a balancing act.

 

[ernestcarl]

... drivers with resonances intrinsically sound worse than ones that measure flat ... Certainly looks like a balancing act.

I like the idea of single driver designs esp. for their apparent simplicity, though, I think I'm more partial to coaxes myself.

I'm not nearly as apprehensive with manual EQ as I've used DSP to "correct" far worse looking measurements than the ones presented here...



I reckon my current center channel uses the same coax driver as B&C 6FHX51 yet with a slightly different (or custom) horn installed by Fulcrum Acoustic -- and, boy, it really needs a lot of equalization to sound great.



The extra headroom from the horn loading might possibly be beneficial as I will eventually be replacing the drop-down projection screen above my front desk to an acoustically transparent screen for movie watching at the couch MLP in the rear end of the room.

 

[Tangband]

de

I'm confused since @Tangband was telling me about how passive filters intrinsically sound worse than DSP filters:

Active DSP DIY speakers, for testing a few ideas

FFLOTSAM (Fabricated From LeftOver Things Studio Active Monitor) Active DSP speakers, for testing a few ideas I had some stuff lying around; a few random Baltic Birch-ply panels, some countertop material, a few cans of partially used brown spray paint, and some not-too clumpy spar varnish (that...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Doubly odd since he was also telling me in no uncertain terms that drivers with resonances intrinsically sound worse than ones that measure flat.
Here we have drivers with dramatic resonant modes, covering frequencies including those resonances, plus directivity causing the famous off-axis dance to get the FR right. Certainly looks like a balancing act.

Every crossover, analog or dsp changes the sound and makes it somewhat less transparent. Maybe I have had a to big belief in transparent dsp crossovers ? Just because its digital its no guaranty for a really good sound.
I have changed my opinion. If someone told me a year ago that I would fully enjoy full range drivers I wouldnt have believed it.

I have built two fullrange driver constructions 20 years ago*, but they all had faults that was hard to live with. I made the wrong conclusion that it wasnt good enough. And I hadnt listen to a Markaudio driver. This chn110 can also play deep bass at rather high volume , so no need for a subwoofer.

* ( La petite audiophile ( fostex sigma ) and Mupps ( faktiskt.io building with vifa 4 inch driver )

 

[Tangband]

Have enjoyed this recording today on my chn110 speakers. Really good music.

 

[ernestcarl]

Every crossover, analog or dsp changes the sound and makes it somewhat less transparent. Maybe I have had a to big belief in transparent dsp crossovers ? Just because its digital its no guaranty for a really good sound.

This kind of generalized platitude does not make much sense to me as every loudspeaker design is different and just a recipe of tradeoffs. Some designs perform worse than others in any type or category obviously.

No transducer is inherently perfect or completely linear. Signal processing in the chain does not inherently make the final response any less transparent. You really have to back this up with evidence or at least be more specific with your claims to individual case examples.

I have changed my opinion. If someone told me a year ago that I would fully enjoy full range drivers I wouldnt have believed it.

There does seem to be an overall bias at ASR against single driver “full-range” designs which is too bad since they can definitely sound great and be quite enjoyable to listen to… but the criticisms are in general not without merit.

 

[MAB]

de

Every crossover, analog or dsp changes the sound and makes it somewhat less transparent. Maybe I have had a to big belief in transparent dsp crossovers ? Just because its digital its no guaranty for a really good sound.
I have changed my opinion. If someone told me a year ago that I would fully enjoy full range drivers I wouldnt have believed it.

I have built two fullrange driver constructions 20 years ago*, but they all had faults that was hard to live with. I made the wrong conclusion that it wasnt good enough. And I hadnt listen to a Markaudio driver. This chn110 can also play deep bass at rather high volume , so no need for a subwoofer.

* ( La petite audiophile ( fostex sigma ) and Mupps ( faktiskt.io building with vifa 4 inch driver )

Fairly unsatisfying answers. Since you repeatedly evangelized resonance-free drivers as being the only way to go. And you had such strong criticisms of passive filters (you wouldn't stop in any of my threads!), and repeatedly spoke with such absolute surety of the vast superiority of DSP. And you do it in other threads too, professing that (a) drivers with resonances are bad, especially when operated in the region of the resonance and (b) passives filters are just bad and your ears can hear clearly.

So you got a pair of fullrangers with some pretty wild resonances. No big deal about the FR irregularities and resonances unless you trap yourself in purist thinking about how to manage these things. I guess I'm wondering what you are going to do and if you are going to investigate with tools and methods, and ultimately demonstrate a satisfying fullrange speaker.

 

[WinWiz]

Have enjoyed this recording today on my chn110 speakers. Really good music.

I prefer something like this:

-It get really mean around 5:30

Shows chn110 is a versatile driver

 

[WinWiz]

Mounting my speakers in the overhang is quite a challenge. Not much space to work with out there!
And cutting perfect circles with a jigsaw isn't easy when you can't see what you are doing...

 

[MAB]

Mounting my speakers in the overhang is quite a challenge. Not much space to work with out there!
And cutting perfect circles with a jigsaw isn't easy when you can't see what you are doing...

Are there enclosures behind the drivers, or they open to the attic?

 

[WinWiz]

Are there enclosures behind the drivers, or they open to the attic?

Check post #109

Not finished yet
Need to cutout the vents.
Secure the enclosures to the rafts.
Round the chamfered driver cutouts
Paint the cuts
Also want to up the cables from 2.5mm² to 4mm² because they will have to be 11-13 meters.

 

[MAB]

Check post #109

Not finished yet
Need to cutout the vents.
Secure the enclosures to the rafts.
Round the chamfered driver cutouts
Paint the cuts
Also want to up the cables from 2.5mm² to 4mm² because they will have to be 11-13 meters.

OK, yes I see now.

 

[Tangband]

This kind of generalized platitude does not make much sense to me as every loudspeaker design is different and just a recipe of tradeoffs. Some designs perform worse than others in any type or category obviously.

No transducer is inherently perfect or completely linear. Signal processing in the chain does not inherently make the final response any less transparent. You really have to back this up with evidence or at least be more specific with your claims to individual case examples.



There does seem to be an overall bias at ASR against single driver “full-range” designs which is too bad since they can definitely sound great and be quite enjoyable to listen to… but the criticisms are in general not without merit.

I guess that one big reason I like the sound from chn110 is because it has no crossover at all , passive or active in the sensitive 1-5 kHz area.

 

[Tangband]

Fairly unsatisfying answers. Since you repeatedly evangelized resonance-free drivers as being the only way to go. And you had such strong criticisms of passive filters (you wouldn't stop in any of my threads!), and repeatedly spoke with such absolute surety of the vast superiority of DSP. And you do it in other threads too, professing that (a) drivers with resonances are bad, especially when operated in the region of the resonance and (b) passives filters are just bad and your ears can hear clearly.

So you got a pair of fullrangers with some pretty wild resonances. No big deal about the FR irregularities and resonances unless you trap yourself in purist thinking about how to manage these things. I guess I'm wondering what you are going to do and if you are going to investigate with tools and methods, and ultimately demonstrate a satisfying fullrange speaker.

I have change my mind about digital or analog crossovers in the frequencies where the ear are most sensitive- I dont like it and I think it should be avoided if possible.

The chn110 sounds neutral to me, even in the treble.
The ear dont hear irregularities with high Q the same way as the mic .

And anyway - maybe good two channel audio is all about creating the illusion of the real event, with 2 loudspeakers in a room playing music in stereo ?

The chn110 is also (obviously) tuned and inspired somewhat by the equal loudness contour ( Fletcher Munson ).

( above the frequency respons of CHN110 in loudspeakercabinet with 19.5 cm wide baffle.
1/3 oct smoothing on axis, 1 metre inroom with OM1 measurement microphone.)

 

[MAB]

I have change my mind about digital or analog crossovers in the frequencies where the ear are most sensitive- I dont like it and it should be avoided if possible.

The chn110 sounds neutral to me, even in the treble.
I like the sound better than from Genelec 8340 , it sounds more dynamic and open. In turn, the 8340 sound better than most passive 2 channel speakers I have heard.

The ear dont hear irregularities with high Q the same way as the mic .

And anyway - good two channel audio is all about creating the illusion of the real event, with 2 loudspeakers in a room playing music in stereo.
The chn110 is also (obviously) tuned and inspired somewhat by the equal loudness contour ( Fletcher Munson ).
View attachment 309111View attachment 309113
Frequency respons of CHN110 in loudspeakercabinet with 19.5 cm wide baffle.
1/3 oct smoothing on axis, 1 metre inroom with OM1 measurement microphone.

If I wanted that, I would EQ a flat speaker with reasonably good directivity to that target..
Do you need to get multiple fullrangers, one tuned for 65dB, another for 85dB for instance? Yamaha used to have this great variable loudness feature so you don't have to retune your speakers when you change the volume.
Also, I try to use the mic as a measurement tool, not to simulate my ears. In fact, I expect way more out of my mic than my ears. Smoothing is for a different purpose than to make your mic ear-like. Unless you hook the mic directly to the brain.
Also, they seem to measure like a Nautilus!

I had to scale the axes of the snippet of FR you sent to get them aligned. Each will have interesting interaction with PEQ.

 

[WinWiz]

Personally I think Fletcher Munson curve is flawed.
Isn't Psychoacoustic smoothing supposed to show the response like humans hear it?

 

[Tangband]

If I wanted that, I would EQ a flat speaker with reasonably good directivity to that target..
Do you need to get multiple fullrangers, one tuned for 65dB, another for 85dB for instance? Yamaha used to have this great variable loudness feature so you don't have to retune your speakers when you change the volume.
Also, I try to use the mic as a measurement tool, not to simulate my ears. In fact, I expect way more out of my mic than my ears. Smoothing is for a different purpose than to make your mic ear-like. Unless you hook the mic directly to the brain.
Also, they seem to measure like a Nautilus!
View attachment 309169
I had to scale the axes of the snippet of FR you sent to get them aligned. Each will have interesting interaction with PEQ.

Interesting thoughts. My DIY hybrid with waveguide and my Genelecs had good directivity but didnt sound as natural as the chn110. And it didnt help to use eq.

 

[Gahf]

A few years ago, after seeing some rave subjective reviews of Mark Audio drivers, I spent some time pondering them.

I came to many comparable conclusions as you state in this post. The manufacturers posted measurements were often incomplete and/or misleading. As you said, no miracles!

I too got carried away and ended up making two designs after ordering two pairs of the CHN70 4 inch drivers. One of them is a voigt horn and another is a transmission line folded horn. They measure reasonably well, and plenty of people who have heard them like them. I was always fascinated by large horns with single full range speakers and was very keen to see the results myself. I don't think they disappoint me, but I have not become a fan of these speakers. Either the measurements were not too correct while designing the enclosures, but I do hear out of phase notes every now and then. Once I used them with a single ended class A design inspired by Nelson Pass, and the incoherency in bass response was quite evident to me. But as I said, so many people have heard these and liked them, I think these do have a following. I just wonder if someone has ever posted a report on prolonged use of these as I think a few songs once a while are good to hear on these, but maybe more than those first few songs people like us might not be impressed. Here are the photos of the two speakers.

 

[Waxx]

I too got carried away and ended up making two designs after ordering two pairs of the CHN70 4 inch drivers. One of them is a voigt horn and another is a transmission line folded horn. They measure reasonably well, and plenty of people who have heard them like them. I was always fascinated by large horns with single full range speakers and was very keen to see the results myself. I don't think they disappoint me, but I have not become a fan of these speakers. Either the measurements were not too correct while designing the enclosures, but I do hear out of phase notes every now and then. Once I used them with a single ended class A design inspired by Nelson Pass, and the incoherency in bass response was quite evident to me. But as I said, so many people have heard these and liked them, I think these do have a following. I just wonder if someone has ever posted a report on prolonged use of these as I think a few songs once a while are good to hear on these, but maybe more than those first few songs people like us might not be impressed. Here are the photos of the two speakers. View attachment 310275View attachment 310276

The CHN70 is a very different driver than the CHN110, it's a smaller paper cone driver that was not that good, the CHN110 is a magnesium alloy cone, with a much better frame and magnet and a lot more neutral in sound. Not all Mark Audio drivers are good, some are among the best fullrange driver ou will find, but some are just rubbish. In that format the Alpair 7.3, 7MS or the CHR70 are a lot better. Also, both cabinets are backloaded horns with the horn on the back, which means they are very sensitive ot placement. If you put them to close or to far from the backwall, they will not sound good with any driver. And both designs were made for other drivers, not for this one, so the cabinet is not optimal for this driver.

And what is a fact, fullrange drivers will never be as neutral sounding as a multiway system, they got other qualities that some like and some not. If you were looking for a neutral hi fidelity speaker this ones are not for you.

 

[Tangband]

I too got carried away and ended up making two designs after ordering two pairs of the CHN70 4 inch drivers. One of them is a voigt horn and another is a transmission line folded horn. They measure reasonably well, and plenty of people who have heard them like them. I was always fascinated by large horns with single full range speakers and was very keen to see the results myself. I don't think they disappoint me, but I have not become a fan of these speakers. Either the measurements were not too correct while designing the enclosures, but I do hear out of phase notes every now and then. Once I used them with a single ended class A design inspired by Nelson Pass, and the incoherency in bass response was quite evident to me. But as I said, so many people have heard these and liked them, I think these do have a following. I just wonder if someone has ever posted a report on prolonged use of these as I think a few songs once a while are good to hear on these, but maybe more than those first few songs people like us might not be impressed. Here are the photos of the two speakers. View attachment 310275View attachment 310276

Nice to hear about the chn70 and the beautiful looking boxes you have made.

In my opinion, If one get a bass reflex loaded speaker right, it is much easier to get a good and even bass than with many horn loaded constructions. I havent succeded in building a good horn, but it surely can be done with lots of trial and error and modifications.

Another thing to think about when constructing is the size of the room youre using the speakers in . Its not a good idea to tune a bassreflex loaded loudspeaker at 46 Hz If the room has a fundamental resonance (between two main walls) at the same frequency. The response will get a boomy bass sound in worse case. And you are in the ”musical tones” area.

Most normal music material has little musical tones below 41 Hz ( bassguitar:s lowest string is E ), so I tuned my chn110 lower, at 36 Hz . One exception is churchorgans.

Frequencies of Musical Notes, A4 = 440 Hz

 

[WinWiz]

Sure bass reflex is easy. But when you have done various sealed, vented, isobaric and bandpass. Horn or TL might be a welcome challenge. Compared with commercial speakers Diy is seldom the easy route...
What is normal music?
Guess you mean acoustic music...
Yes bass E string is 41hz but that doesn't mean that anything bellow 40hz doesn't matter for hifi music playback.
Building an affordable speaker with strong and accurate output covering 20-20khz is a lot more challenging than building a speaker missing the lowest octave...
I think this is one area where the chn110 shines. Stiff low mass cone with decent Xmas. And no expense for tweeter and xover equals great bang for buck. Single point source and avoiding phase issues from several drivers overlapping in some frequencies is another benefit.