Markaudio CHN 110 building and comparisons with Genelec 8340 SAM monitors

[Tangband]

Only after glowing sound descriptions; wasn't it perfect after two iterations? Now you recognize deficits? As always, at least on my compass, every wideband/single whatever doesn't do.

I acknowledge the fascination with bringing something impossible up step by step, jumping over hurdles, running through them. But actually we are on 13th floor, and you still try to find a way out of the basement ...

Remember I have my Genelec 8340 - measures perfect and has probably the golfing pinkpanther reward on ASR .
Everyone is happy and clap their hands.
So Im innocent.

As I wrote in the beginning, the bias for liking something self made like a DIY speaker is very large.

One has to wait and listen carefully during relaxed forms to notice any flaws in the sound, and in my case compare the sound with a reference speaker like Genelec.

Theres also another reference - real music in real concert halls .

As you also can read - neither I or Waxx has noticed any serious flaws in our different constructions using chn110, infact its the opposite. Why is that ?

 

[fineMen]

Theres also another reference - real music in real concert halls.

Not really, because the concert cannot be recorded as is. ... ... Really, I mean it. The commercialized recording is the result of decision making from the side of musicians (which take to take), the sound engineer (which microphoning technology to use, stereo rendering, endless ...), the producer (which of the former decisions were right, which have to be reverted) before the product gets its o/k.

If there are decisions to be made between basically equivalent choices there is no more final truth in the result. It is as simple as it gets.

The reference of a concert hall also feels a bit far fetched. As if the audiophile actually enjoys what he refers to when talking concert hall. Music from the second last century, how does it relate to, example given, me?! I was 12 when I gave up 'classical'

Anyway, I don't believe that a single driver concept holds today. But I give you the benefit of doubt. I was only wondering by what it sounded 'good' and only after you correct broadband frequency response irregularities with baffle step compensation. Never mind.

 

[Waxx]

To many think all fullrange drivers are a like the older style (Lowther/AN/Fostex/Philips/...) but also this type of drivers moved on and the modern high engineered drivers like those from Mark Audio do a lot better and get close to a performance of a typical dome tweeter/midwoofer config. The distortion is higher, volume is limited and the dispertion less controlled (beaming on higher frequencies) but it's so reduced in inpact that those drivers sound better than a lot of cheaper commercial regular bookshelfs when used right. They are also still a bit coloured in sound (no flat FR) but the sound image is very consistent because it's a true point source. And that is a quality no multiway can archive, not even a WAW config (altough they get close).

But it will always be a niche, with a specific sound that is not for everyone, and in general not scoring very good on the ASR standards like high engineered bookshelfs (like those of Genelec or Neumann, JBL or Revel). That's why i don't talk much about my experiences here with my own fullrange builds. It's a subjective preference that makes people love them, not an objective superiority. If you want a monitor like speaker with a neutral response, low distortion and controlled even directivity, a fullrange driver based system is not for you.

And in case of the CHN110, i love that this driver can do this all and only cost 60€. That is on the very cheap side in fullrange driver land where snake oil is still very present and some drivers (bare drivers) are sold for over 10K and sound way worse than this one.

 

[DSJR]

Measured tonal balance is awful though with rises and falls up to 10dB on the specs of that Mark Audio driver. OK, today with digital sources this can be evened out, but then doesn't dispersion/directivity start to suffer, not that many owners can hear over 13kHz I suspect?

Can these basic drivers 'go as loud' cleanly as the little Genelecs? I was told they can't by a once owner pal who got fed up and sold them on (he did a TL cab for his mark Audio drivers and now uses some Q Acoustics M20's which he claims are better all round - at least for his use...

 

[Tangband]

Not really, because the concert cannot be recorded as is. ... ... Really, I mean it. The commercialized recording is the result of decision making from the side of musicians (which take to take), the sound engineer (which microphoning technology to use, stereo rendering, endless ...), the producer (which of the former decisions were right, which have to be reverted) before the product gets its o/k.

If there are decisions to be made between basically equivalent choices there is no more final truth in the result. It is as simple as it gets.

The reference of a concert hall also feels a bit far fetched. As if the audiophile actually enjoys what he refers to when talking concert hall. Music from the second last century, how does it relate to, example given, me?! I was 12 when I gave up 'classical'

Anyway, I don't believe that a single driver concept holds today. But I give you the benefit of doubt. I was only wondering by what it sounded 'good' and only after you correct broadband frequency response irregularities with baffle step compensation. Never mind.

Is dont agree with you that a real live music performance cant be a reference . It can , because the recorded 2 channel playback is only an illusion of the real thing. If the illusion is good and it sounds real, then the playback is very good. The same goes for a human voice talking or singing, or people clapping their hands - we all know how that should sound for real , thus it is a ” real ” reference that can, and should, be used when judging the sound from a loudspeaker.

 

[Tangband]

Measured tonal balance is awful though with rises and falls up to 10dB on the specs of that Mark Audio driver. OK, today with digital sources this can be evened out, but then doesn't dispersion/directivity start to suffer, not that many owners can hear over 13kHz I suspect?

Can these basic drivers 'go as loud' cleanly as the little Genelecs? I was told they can't by a once owner pal who got fed up and sold them on (he did a TL cab for his mark Audio drivers and now uses some Q Acoustics M20's which he claims are better all round - at least for his use...

I cant see anything of that in Waxx in room measurements, except for the impact of the room. And why are my Genelec 8340 collecting dust right now ?

 

[fineMen]

Is dont agree with you that a real live music performance cant be a reference . It can , because the recorded 2 channel playback is only an illusion of the real thing. If the illusion is good and it sounds real, then the playback is very good. The same goes for a human voice talking or singing, or people clapping their hands - we all know how that should sound for real , thus it is a ” real ” reference that can, and should, be used when judging the sound from a loudspeaker.

I reiterate, I know. The illusion is designed in the studio, it doesn't come automatically. It depends on decisions that the personell is free to make. From this alone, no resemblance to the real thing, logically. But this musing undermines your very believes, I know. Hard to grasp even, better to say especially such a simple thing under given circumstances.
My moment of truth came when I tried to record natural sounds with quite good, especially neutral microphones. It doesn't work. The natural sounds sounded unnatural ;-) So I went on to capture the bats' calls in my backyard ... good luck with your build!

 

[DSJR]

I cant see anything of that in Waxx in room measurements, except for the impact of the room. And why are my Genelec 8340 collecting dust right now ?

No idea, but if you prefer the Mark Audio/DIY speakers, I have no right to comment

 

[Tangband]

No idea, but if you prefer the Mark Audio/DIY speakers, I have no right to comment

You have a conversation

 

[badspeakerdesigner]

Had a friend over recently who had a little tower using a 4" dayton woofer and a CHN40, I was pleasantly surprised by how it sounded. It did a lot well, the beaming I figured would be a problem wasn't. It had a simple hipass on it and sounded quite good. I'm pretty intrigued by your speaker Tangband. If anything it's a cheap good speaker to have around that could offer something different for mix checking. I believe this person is entering his speakers in parts express competition this week. We played with xover filters and got measurements for him.

 

[kemmler3D]

I don't know how people at diyaudio wade through it all.

A lot of those guys are extremely conversant with T/S parameters and pretty much know what's possible from the specs on the magnet and the size of the cone.

 

[Tangband]

Long story short - my main speaker is now my Markaudio chn110 speaker !
If live music Is the reference then the sound is better in many cases than most of my former loudspeakers, including expensive active Linn systems ( kaber ), Monitor audio rx6, jbl 530 and Hybriddist.

I have sold my Genelec SAM monitors.
I also compared my chn110 to my brothers Genelec 8030 and chn 110 sounded better in every way . This was not expected at all when I started building those speakers. I didnt play very loud during this testing so the Genelecs might play with higher spl.

I have also recently done comparisons between different amplifiers up to 1000 dollars with my speakers and my Aiyima with LM4562 + powersupply Meanwell medical grade 30V 6A beats them all. It feels strange to use this small tpa3251 based amplifier that dont get warm and plays better tunes than many bigger review winners for 500-1000 dollars.
Now I want a remote control for the volume .

I really want to find a more practical amplifier and I guess that a Hypex based amp could sound better , but who nows ? This hobby is expensive If one must buy everything to make valid decisions.

I have done one more upgrade in my system this last week - I have bought a second hand Rega dac R . This has improved the sound from my Yamaha wxc50 streamer and its more fun to listen to music now. This was no surprise to me because I have own the first version of this dac at 2013, and I liked the sound very much.

To me its very hard to go back to loudspeakers with more than one driver - I can hear the crossover everytime and in many cases this robs the illusion of a real music-event in the listeningroom.

 

[kemmler3D]

I have sold my Genelec SAM monitors.
I also compared my chn110 to my brothers Genelec 8030 and chn 110 sounded better in every way . This was not expected at all when I started building those speakers.

Whoa! This is indeed unexpected. Quite a victory for the underdog here.

I am still interested in how the chn110 measures on-and off-axis even so. I know that often single-driver speakers are preferred subjectively despite measurements that look worse. I guess this is hard to explain with the standard measurement suite, but there's nothing wrong with having preferences that don't look "correct" in graphs.

 

[Tangband]

Whoa! This is indeed unexpected. Quite a victory for the underdog here.

I am still interested in how the chn110 measures on-and off-axis even so. I know that often single-driver speakers are preferred subjectively despite measurements that look worse. I guess this is hard to explain with the standard measurement suite, but there's nothing wrong with having preferences that don't look "correct" in graphs.

I promise I will make measurements both on and off axis before the end of august ( I still havent got time )

 

[kemmler3D]

I currently have some cheap "full range" drivers I've been sitting on pending a 1-way build but I think I'm going to use these instead... the measurements on the site look pretty good and your subjective review is also pretty strong.

 

[Waxx]

Long story short - my main speaker is now my Markaudio chn110 speaker !
If live music Is the reference then the sound is better in many cases than most of my former loudspeakers, including expensive active Linn systems ( kaber ), Monitor audio rx6, jbl 530 and Hybriddist.

I have sold my Genelec SAM monitors.
I also compared my chn110 to my brothers Genelec 8030 and chn 110 sounded better in every way . This was not expected at all when I started building those speakers. I didnt play very loud during this testing so the Genelecs might play with higher spl.

I have also recently done comparisons between different amplifiers up to 1000 dollars with my speakers and my Aiyima with LM4562 + powersupply Meanwell medical grade 30V 6A beats them all. It feels strange to use this tpa3251 based amplifier that dont get warm and plays better tunes than many review winners for 500-1000 dollars.
Now I want a remote control for the volume .

I really want to find a more practical amplifier and I guess that a Hypex based amp could sound better , but who nows ? This hobby is expensive If one must buy everything to make valid decisions.

I have done one more upgrade in my system this last week - I have bought a second hand Rega dac R . This has improved the sound from my Yamaha wxc50 streamer and its more fun to listen to music now. This was no surprise to me because I have own the first version of this dac at 2013, and I liked the sound very much.

To me its very hard to go back to loudspeakers with more than one driver - I can hear the crossover everytime and in many cases this robs the illusion of a real music-event in the listeningroom.

I drive my CHN110 MLTL with a Hypex Ncore based amp, the Audiophonics MPA-S125NC. I do use a diy tube preamp in front if it altough, but that is a very good combination.

​

 

[badspeakerdesigner]

No way I'd ever sell my genelec for a full range driver. Way too many downsides with the full range.

The chn40 we measured had like the worst dispersion I've ever seen, so there's that.

Tube pre's, dac swaps with supposed improvements? This is way too far into skeptical territory for me want to go further into investigating a full range speaker. It seems nearly impossible to get any real info about these things. My interest gets lower the more I read and the more audiophoolery I run into.

 

[Waxx]

Tube pre's, dac swaps with supposed improvements? This is way too far into skeptical territory for me want to go further into investigating a full range speaker. It seems nearly impossible to get any real info about these things. My interest gets lower the more I read and the more audiophoolery I run into.

Tube pre brings subjective improvement by adding harmonic distortion, that is my cup of tea, maybe not yours. My dac is a MiniDSP Flex btw and yes i eq my fullrange driver flat to the room. If you prefer Genelecs, than you need to buy Genelecs, but i find them fatiguing. If i want clean sound i would get Neumann's. That is personal tast of course, as both measure very clean low distortion. But that is not always the goal, or the best sounding in a subjective taste. I think that fullrange drivers have qualities that no multiway has (and reverse), and have both styles of speakers in my house. And i build both styles diy based on measurements.

 

[kemmler3D]

It seems nearly impossible to get any real info about these things. My interest gets lower the more I read and the more audiophoolery I run into.

The main thing we have to go on for now is the manufacturer FR chart and Tangband's on-axis measurement. While you always want to take mfr. charts with a grain of salt, the extension looks good on both ends and pretty flat compared to other FR drivers I've seen at sane prices.

As for whether this driver is objectively comparable to a Genelec in measurements - no, that's physically impossible. Could it still be worthwhile for a cheap-ish DIY build? Sure, IMO. Is it inconceivable that someone might prefer these to a genelec? Obviously not. Does that mean anyone else would? Not necessarily.

 

[ctrl]

It seems nearly impossible to get any real info about these things.

It is not difficult to get a rough estimate of the on-axis frequency response (assuming that the half-space manufacturer driver measurement is reliable) and speaker radiation.

For this we take Tangband's specification (31L, BR @36Hz) and simulate the low frequency response of the speaker with baffle step (orange doted line). Then we use the manufacturer half-space FR measurement and simulate the driver on-axis FR on the speaker baffle and adjust the low FR response.
This gives us approximately the following on-axis FR:

In reality, it should look a bit more even in the low frequency range below 100Hz, as I suspect that some room resonances are included in the manufacturer's measurement.
Because VCAD does not include the cabinet depth in the simulation, its influence on the on-axis FR is missing.
Due to the slim and high cabinet shape of the loudspeaker, a cabinet resonance occurs around 170Hz, which also will have an influence on the on-axis FR, if this resonance is not damped (the same applies to possible BR port resonances).


Since Tangband will make detailed measurements anyway, I will spare myself an time consuming BEM simulation of the speaker to get the radiation and use the simplified simulation in VCAD (normalized hor and ver radiation):

There are a few things to keep in mind when interpreting the radiation simulation.
The influence of the cabinet depth on the radiation is missing, which should slightly change the radiation somewhere around 1kHz.

Above 4-5kHz, the radiation should be less narrow than shown in the simulation, since the driver has a special dust cap that probably takes over the radiation of the high frequencies to a large extent.

I don't know of any off-axis measurements for the CHN-110 driver, but the equally sized, but more expensive, Pluvia 11 has an identical dust cap and shows significantly less beaming than one would expect from a 5.5'' driver.
First manufacturer on-axis measurement, then magazine 0,15,30 deg half-space measurement of the Pluvia 11:

Source: Klang und Ton 2021-3

Bottom Line: The pronounced on-axis frequency response dip in the range of 2-5 kHz is not likely to be completely flattened off-axis either. This could lead to a rather warm, laid back sound impression. It could also lead to the sound stage being perceived more at height or behind the speakers ("deep sound stage").
The on-axis FR is actually too flat for a full-range driver of this size; one would actually tune to a flat 20°-30° FR. But maybe the special dust cap is sufficient to give a balanced sound impression.