Markaudio CHN 110 building and comparisons with Genelec 8340 SAM monitors

[Waxx]

The alignment i use is a (ML)TL alignment that less rely on xmax for bass, but more on cabinet resonances (for theory look here). So the bass is a lot cleaner than you would expect if you're used to reflexes. But even in reflex it's good till decentvolume (+/- 90dB). I came to a 30L reflex with a 3" port of 8" length (for a tuning to 40Hz). With an TL type you can tune it a bit below fs without issue, with a reflex that is not a good id in general.

 

[Waxx]

This is the speaker used, it's a raw testbuild actually that i should rebuild in good wood. Now it's cheap mdf and roughly finished with warnex paint as proof of concept. The slot is hard to see in this picture, but is down where it's full black.

 

[Tangband]

The alignment i use is a (ML)TL alignment that less rely on xmax for bass, but more on cabinet resonances (for theory look here). So the bass is a lot cleaner than you would expect if you're used to reflexes. But even in reflex it's good till decentvolume (+/- 90dB). I came to a 30L reflex with a 3" port of 8" length (for a tuning to 40Hz). With an TL type you can tune it a bit below fs without issue, with a reflex that is not a good id in general.

The last sentence is true if one uses low Qts drivers. Better soundresult can then often be had if tuning the tube/box above the drivers fs.

This chn110 has a Qts of 0.42 which makes it possible to tune this driver a little below fs , in a large box or use it in a closed box .

 

[badspeakerdesigner]

I always hear a lot pro's with full range drivers on acoustic music or sparse stuff, but how does it sound with stuff like this?

Constellations (feat. Lily Juniper), by Frederic Robinson

from the album Flea Waltz

fredericrobinson.bandcamp.com

 

[Waxx]

I always hear a lot pro's with full range drivers on acoustic music or sparse stuff, but how does it sound with stuff like this?

Constellations (feat. Lily Juniper), by Frederic Robinson

from the album Flea Waltz

fredericrobinson.bandcamp.com

This is light pop with some bass. It sounds good on my Mark Audio Alpair 10.3 based bookshelfs from nearby. Just don't expect high volume, the cone is to small for that. Mark Audio and the similar drivers from E.J. Jordan, EAD or Scanspeak are the more advanced ones altough, on older fullrange drivers like Lowther, Fostex, Tang Band, Audio Nirvana or similar it will sound worse as the bandwith is less and the xmax often very limited (and so the bass also).

If you want high volume, the trick is to make a WAW, a Woofer Assisted Wideband, where you use a smaller fullrange driver as mid top and a woofer for bass and sub with the crossover somewhere between 150 and 500Hz. I have also a system like that with an Alpair 10.3 and a 10" scanspeak 26W/8534G00 driver, both in sealed cabinets and dsp crossover at 250Hz (24dB/decade Bessel filters) and eq. That is my main system actually.

 

[Waxx]

btw, on my CHN110 MLTL's it's similar as on my bookshelfs, with the difference they cut at 32Hz F3 while the bookshelfs only go to 45Hz F3.

 

[badspeakerdesigner]

I'd like to try to try a WAW speaker, but generally it seems that making a baffle for a large woofer also means making a large baffle for the full range driver. I'd like to keep things thin, the tall thin towers very much appeal to me. I was hoping to just HP a CHN110 at 100hz and have subs handle the low end.

I don't need much volume, I intend to use them near field in a small bedroom.

 

[Waxx]

I'd like to try to try a WAW speaker, but generally it seems that making a baffle for a large woofer also means making a large baffle for the full range driver. I'd like to keep things thin, the tall thin towers very much appeal to me. I was hoping to just HP a CHN110 at 100hz and have subs handle the low end.

I don't need much volume, I intend to use them near field in a small bedroom.

If you want a narrow baffle, use a series of woofers that go low enough to make up for the cone. Something like 2x the 8" SB23MFCL45-8 in an MLTL with a fullrange on top in a sealed cabinet with crossover a bit higher, arround 200 to 400Hz.

With subs you'll need a ported cabinet as sealed need to be crossed at least at 150Hz, what is to high for most subs, and certainly for subs that are not in line with the tops as sound is still directional at 150hz. Ported has it's set of problems as the port has a high group delay son not so easy to cross right to. Or you have to port the cabinet to low so the filter (needs to be higher order) filters the port frequency out.

 

[Tangband]

I'd like to try to try a WAW speaker, but generally it seems that making a baffle for a large woofer also means making a large baffle for the full range driver. I'd like to keep things thin, the tall thin towers very much appeal to me. I was hoping to just HP a CHN110 at 100hz and have subs handle the low end.

I don't need much volume, I intend to use them near field in a small bedroom.

One could always build a WAW , something like Kef ls60 with the woofers ( two or four ) on each side of the speaker, mounted at the same hight as the full range driver. The cabinet can be slim that way. My Markaudio chn110 is 19,5 cm wide.

That said, in my opinion there is a very coherent sound to be had If using only one driver , and the stereoillusion is awesome. I have a feeling that closed chn110 crossed at 100 Hz can play rather loud.

 

[Tangband]

I'd like to try to try a WAW speaker, but generally it seems that making a baffle for a large woofer also means making a large baffle for the full range driver. I'd like to keep things thin, the tall thin towers very much appeal to me. I was hoping to just HP a CHN110 at 100hz and have subs handle the low end.

I don't need much volume, I intend to use them near field in a small bedroom.

Theoretically, there is some need for baffle step correction with a slim tower If the speakers are put away some distance from the frontwall. Im gonna try a passive line level baffle step correction for my chn110 towers, using two Vishay resistors and one polyprophylene capacitor and a box for each channel and RCA cable . Its gonna be about 3 dB below 650 Hz . This filter will be put between my digital source and my amplifier. All the components and rca cable ( bought from audiophonics ) for both channels costs about 25 euros including taxes and shipping and I will have them on thursday. I will take some pictures how the filter is done, and write If the sound became any better.
Stay tuned.

At the upper left you can see the principle for a passive line level baffle step correction filter, in this case resulting in a correction from about 730 Hz. ( Linkwitz example )

 

[Waxx]

I don't see that need in my measurments, with the front of the box 65cm from the back wall. This is whout any eq, and the dips at 90 and 180Hz are room modes. But you can try that if you think you need it. I did try it, but it was too much bass then.

 

[badspeakerdesigner]

An ls60 style speaker sounds tough to do, I have some peerless woofers (sds 160f25) I could use. Not sure how those would work as far a passive xover or how directivity is affected by side firing woofers. I was reading ls60 paper but not quite that far into it. I still don't get how two woofers firing opposite don't just cancel out in bad ways, KEF knows what they're doing though. At that point it seems like it'd be smarter to grab a sica 5" coax though.

I have a set of tower speakers (Amiga kit) that are pulled out from the front and I impliment a simple +3db low shelf starting around 300hz to bring all that info down there back.

I don't know how annoying the beaming would be, I was testing a speaker of mine and ran the 5" woofer open and was kinda surprised at how little the beaming was audible.

 

[Tangband]

An ls60 style speaker sounds tough to do, I have some peerless woofers (sds 160f25) I could use. Not sure how those would work as far a passive xover or how directivity is affected by side firing woofers. I was reading ls60 paper but not quite that far into it. I still don't get how two woofers firing opposite don't just cancel out in bad ways, KEF knows what they're doing though. At that point it seems like it'd be smarter to grab a sica 5" coax though.

I have a set of tower speakers (Amiga kit) that are pulled out from the front and I impliment a simple +3db low shelf starting around 300hz to bring all that info down there back.

I don't know how annoying the beaming would be, I was testing a speaker of mine and ran the 5" woofer open and was kinda surprised at how little the beaming was audible.

Going ls60 style, you need an active crossover 24 dB/oct . And you need a good one. A passive coil in such an arrangement ( 6 dB/ oct ) is to little.
And ordinary WAW can get away with a coil and a capacitor as crossover, LP and HP if the bass unit is placed at the same baffle very near the fullrange driver.

 

[Tangband]

An ls60 style speaker sounds tough to do, I have some peerless woofers (sds 160f25) I could use. Not sure how those would work as far a passive xover or how directivity is affected by side firing woofers. I was reading ls60 paper but not quite that far into it. I still don't get how two woofers firing opposite don't just cancel out in bad ways, KEF knows what they're doing though. At that point it seems like it'd be smarter to grab a sica 5" coax though.

I have a set of tower speakers (Amiga kit) that are pulled out from the front and I impliment a simple +3db low shelf starting around 300hz to bring all that info down there back.

I don't know how annoying the beaming would be, I was testing a speaker of mine and ran the 5" woofer open and was kinda surprised at how little the beaming was audible.

Im not sure that the SDS 160f25 is a better bass unit than chn110.

 

[badspeakerdesigner]

I'd argue two 6.5" woofers dedicated to low end will always beat out a full range doing everything. It was just an example of something I could do without having to spend much money. There are a lot of speaker designs I'd like to try but it's most limited by the fact that this isn't a cheap hobby.

I think I'll try and grab some MDF here soon to try one of these guys, I could really go the simplicity after my three way didn't really work out.

 

[Tangband]

I'd argue two 6.5" woofers dedicated to low end will always beat out a full range doing everything. It was just an example of something I could do without having to spend much money. There are a lot of speaker designs I'd like to try but it's most limited by the fact that this isn't a cheap hobby.

I think I'll try and grab some MDF here soon to try one of these guys, I could really go the simplicity after my three way didn't really work out.

As you know , In the passive world the internal volume of the speaker is mandatory . Meaning one single driver in an optimal 31 liter cabinet will go much lower in the bass compared to two or three drivers with similar TS in the same cabinet .

Using 3 chn110 drivers in a box of 93 liters will reach as low as one chn110 in 31 liter, but the bigger box can play much louder .

So, in a passive WAW with more drivers than one theres no way to use small cabinets if you dont use drivers with TS made for small cabinets.

 

[Waxx]

I'd argue two 6.5" woofers dedicated to low end will always beat out a full range doing everything. It was just an example of something I could do without having to spend much money. There are a lot of speaker designs I'd like to try but it's most limited by the fact that this isn't a cheap hobby.

I think I'll try and grab some MDF here soon to try one of these guys, I could really go the simplicity after my three way didn't really work out.

Those peerless are midwoofers, not going very low or loud at all. Take something like a Dayton RS180 or a SB17 woofer and you can go much lower and louder for similar size than that Peerless and don't cost much more. Even a second CHN110 lowpassed as a woofer would be better than that SDS160, that is a very cheap midwoofer, good for it's very cheap price but not that special or good in general.

 

[Tangband]

I would repeat that this chn110 is not a normally performing fullrangedriver - the bass performance is phenomenal in my opinion. I dont need a subwoofer for this speaker. This is ofcourse hard to believe after reading about many mediocre fullrange loudspeakers here on ASR.

 

[badspeakerdesigner]

That's not really a convincing argument to me. If it's so much better, let's see some info as to why. Honestly the more I try and research this driver and mark audio stuff, the more my audiophoolery radar goes off, and it's really off the fritz right now. I don't know how people at diyaudio wade through it all.

I have two ~30 liter speakers, one with an rs180 and one with the peerless and the difference is not that much in the bass department.

 

[fineMen]

Yes it is..
Right now Im trying a simple passive filter for some baffle step correction ...

Only after glowing sound descriptions; wasn't it perfect after two iterations? Now you recognize deficits? As always, at least on my compass, every wideband/single whatever doesn't do.

I acknowledge the fascination with bringing something impossible up step by step, jumping over hurdles, running through them. But actually we are on 13th floor, and you still try to find a way out of the basement ...