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Mark Waldrep In Trouble AGAIN

Sal1950

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I don't understand the debate over the iphone used as a measurement device.
In a absolute sense it matters little if the app is accurate at all against any 0db scale.
Simply the ability to measure a 2db change in relative level was all that was required here and even the crudest app should be sufficient for that.
As to where and how the mike was placed, as a recording engineer I'm sure Mark used do diligence in his approach.
We all owe Mark a bit of graditude for once again revealing a fraudulent demo to our community.
 

sergeauckland

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I think a lot of this debate is missing the main point. The test the cable company was doing was fraudulent and they were found out. They were conning people. How this was discovered is besides the point. Whether Mark could or should have handled this differently is also besides the point. He was brave enough to catch them out and call them out for cheating. In that he should be applauded.

There is evidence that many HiFi companies have done much the same at several shows, turning down the volume when they make a change, then turning it up again, but just that bit further on the one they want to sound better. Couple this with the salesman dancing about, tapping his feet etc etc visibly more when the 'right' system was playing, and we've seen that many if not all such demonstrations are a fraud.

However, when all cables and all decent sources and amplifiers are today transparent and therefore indistinguishable, how is a poor salesman ever going to convince the punters that their version of transparent is better than another's? One way is to make your equipment not transparent, then persuade punters that your is right and all the rest are wrong. Valve, especially SET amplifier manufacturers and crappy loudspeaker manufacturers have done this for years.

S.
 

Blumlein 88

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However, when all cables and all decent sources and amplifiers are today transparent and therefore indistinguishable, how is a poor salesman ever going to convince the punters that their version of transparent is better than another's? One way is to make your equipment not transparent, then persuade punters that your is right and all the rest are wrong. Valve, especially SET amplifier manufacturers and crappy loudspeaker manufacturers have done this for years.

S.
You actually don't have to say your version is better than all the others. Just that yours has some musical validity for some tastes and your offering your taste verses neutrality. Pretty common among microphones in studios and much other processing. No one is claiming they have the one true recording. Simply that here is one take on it, and I think it is nice how about you? And I don't find anything wrong with that. I like triode sound myself. I just realize it is a coloration.
 

sergeauckland

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You actually don't have to say your version is better than all the others. Just that yours has some musical validity for some tastes and your offering your taste verses neutrality. Pretty common among microphones in studios and much other processing. No one is claiming they have the one true recording. Simply that here is one take on it, and I think it is nice how about you? And I don't find anything wrong with that. I like triode sound myself. I just realize it is a coloration.
However, the examples you give, like microphones and triodes do have an objective difference that one can like or not. That's fine by me. What I object to, however, is things like cables and SS amplifiers and digital source components where any differences are subtle at best, and where the manufacturers have to fabricate claims and/or fake demos to create any sort of differentiation with all the other equally sonically identical stuff.

Going back to the 1950s and early '60s, amplifiers were sold on facilities, reliability and technical specifications, pretty much in that order. Sonic differences were hardly mentioned. It would make sense to me if modern electronics were sold on the same basis. Forget imagined sonic differences

S.
 

andreasmaaan

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I think the point is that it's OK to like coloured sound (I admit to it myself!***). What's not ok is to market your non-transparent product as more transparent than the competition on the basis of [insert spurious tech claim].

I know it's a bit boring to admit it, but transparent DACs and amps are available on the market for not crazy €$, and any honest (or at best, not delusional) manufacturer would recognise that, and instead claim in honesty that what might make their product more to your taste is the particular type(s) of distortion that it produces.

***not ashamed to admit I dig euphonic SET-type sound
 

Kal Rubinson

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Does describing measurement conditions make a measurement objective? The bar is set very low these days!

"When measuring the air temperature the thermometer may have been in sunlight - but it depends on whether shadows were being cast by the adjacent barbeque at the time. Using statistical techniques with a very high confidence level we have corrected for this."
No, the measurement is objective. The description makes it repeatable.
 

DuxServit

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Amir: sounds like ASR could benefit from a forum/thread on “Measuring Power Cables”. Not sure how to or what would be measured.

Anyone here have a $13K power cable to lend Amir :p
 

tomelex

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Amir: sounds like ASR could benefit from a forum/thread on “Measuring Power Cables”. Not sure how to or what would be measured.

Anyone here have a $13K power cable to lend Amir :p

Off the top of my head, there is no need to measure current delivery or resistance, that's basic electronics, bigger conductors or less resistance then can let through a bit more current less voltage drop obviously and not of concern until you get a power amp that really needs lots of current, and I means lots of it, not worth setting up the associated gear to do that test IMO.

Another thing they claim is that power cord reduces interference. This could be measured an easy way, that is scope the input and with the other channel the output of the cable (it is obviously in use) and invert signal two and see whats left or just see if what happens at the connection to the power amp socket is less than whats at the wall outlet.

The harder test associated with above is measuring the electric/magnetic fields around the cable, thus if the cable has some shielding, then this would reduce the coupling to other gear or other gear power cables and interconnect etc, which would be of benefit in some cases. (think issues with high gain phono amps etc.) IMO the test would have to be done on somebodys ultra expensive cable that claimed it reduced "noise or fields" otherwise nothing to be gained, and it begs the question if your associated gear power supplies or cabinets or interconnects are victims of fields then they aint state of the art then to start with anyway.

Even if you prove no observable changes, them backrounds are blacker, blah blah blah will still be spouted out ad naeseum, with no consideration that that proves your other gear is not SOTA! ahahahh
 

SIY

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Or even better, just measure actual devices with and without the fancy cords. We don't listen to the mains, we listen to the analog signal. No effect on the analog signal? then the expense for the cord is worthless.

Note that none of the wire peddlers actually does this. That is highly suggestive...
 

tomelex

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Or even better, just measure actual devices with and without the fancy cords. We don't listen to the mains, we listen to the analog signal. No effect on the analog signal? then the expense for the cord is worthless.

Note that none of the wire peddlers actually does this. That is highly suggestive...
Good point SIY, just inject some test tones from your test CD, and measure with the spectrum analyzer at the input to your speakers or wherever, with and without the super ultra deluxe deluxest power cable. Amir could pull that off easy enough, even just not with an input, but the amp gain turned up, and swap out the power cables, it will show if theres radiation it is stopping somewhere.
 

restorer-john

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This is off-topic, but you piqued my curiosity: Why did excellently-measuring amps flaw in real-life
Overly ambitious designs IMO. I'll send you a PM.
 

jhaider

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I use FABER ACOUSTICAL SOUNDMETER.

Calibrated for iPhones.

Highly recommended!

(Yes, this is a commercial from me for a product I think delivers at a reasonable price; the app may be free now).

And yes: 2 dB is well outside of margin of error.
Another alternative that you have already paid for (if you are a US taxpayer) is the NIOSH's SLM app:
https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/topics/noise/app.html
 

Soniclife

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If you wouldn't mind CCing me in too? :)
I think this would be worth a separate thread, one of the main criticisms against measuring things is that these amps measured well but sounded crap, so no point measuring anything ever. I'd like to understand it better, and I expect it's a fascinating story.
 

restorer-john

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I think this would be worth a separate thread, one of the main criticisms against measuring things is that these amps measured well but sounded crap, so no point measuring anything ever.
Yes, it may be worth a separate thread. I'll pull together some of the designs and schematics along with some of the amplifiers I have here that exhibit some of these issues.
 
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