• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

Mark Levinson No 5909 Headphone Review

Rate this headphone:

  • 1. Poor (headless panther)

    Votes: 22 11.6%
  • 2. Not terrible (postman panther)

    Votes: 55 28.9%
  • 3. Fine (happy panther

    Votes: 88 46.3%
  • 4. Great (golfing panther)

    Votes: 25 13.2%

  • Total voters
    190

PeteL

Major Contributor
Joined
Jun 1, 2020
Messages
3,303
Likes
3,838
Actually I’m talking crap. The active portion of the headphone seems to be active at all times regardless of input. Wonder if that’s the problem right there?
I asked the question earlier in the thread and also verified the website and it appears they are passive when used with an analog source.
 

Yuhasz01

Active Member
Joined
Aug 8, 2020
Messages
143
Likes
123
We are all going on a limb here with no research support. Could we be wrong? Maybe but I have tested so many headphones and this spatial effect is so impressive at times. So much so that I have collected tracks that really bring it out. We thought for a while that group delay had something to do with this but turns out not. It is something that can be teased out but may require multiple microphones to measure each cup to determine the spatial characteristics.
Post your track list you use to evaluate this aspect of headphones. It is so elusive with music and how headphones deliver it.
 

WickedInsignia

Active Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2021
Messages
184
Likes
408
Location
Australia
The latest Harman Target was derived from tests with a set of headphones configured to emulate other headphones via FR, not by using the headphones themselves since that would betray the test criteria.
Are the exact technical details of that test headphone (size, weight, earpad material, earcup size) described anywhere?
The reliability of measurements regarding the way audio interacts with outer ear and head are still choppy, at least to my layman knowledge of the industry. There's likely a lot more to the appeal of the target than simply the FR (even though the tests were carried out to deduce solely FR).

The shortcomings on this headphone and the success of the stealth could be down to whichever one is closest in physical design to the Harman test headphone. I'm also aware Sean's spoken on headphone appeal going beyond just FR before.
 

solderdude

Grand Contributor
Joined
Jul 21, 2018
Messages
15,891
Likes
35,912
Location
The Neitherlands
I asked the question earlier in the thread and also verified the website and it appears they are passive when used with an analog source.

Acc. to Amir:

Passive mode input has very high impedance:
Linear 990 ohm so definitely not true passive but an ohmic input resistance of an amplifier.
 

Koo

Member
Joined
Aug 23, 2021
Messages
25
Likes
60
It's clear that there is more to enjoyable headphone sound than the Harman curve. Here we have the perfect specimen in terms of frequency response adherence to the curve, and yet there is a large difference in enjoyment compared with the equally compliant DC Stealth. The Rtings website has a PRTF score derived by comparing measurements with and without pinna (ear chopped off dummy head), and comparing the difference with that of speakers. I believe this gives some insight into the headphone's spatial qualities. At least some of their conclusions, such as rating the Sennheiser 800S on top for spatial quality, seem in agreement with my experience.
1656421076644.png

Here is the top of their list, I have heard most of them and it seems reasonable. However I currently own the HE-400i and the LCD-2C and it's clear as day that the Audeze has vastly wider and more realistic soundstage. Their model isn't perfect but it seems to have some predictive power for sure.
 

Cars-N-Cans

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
May 19, 2022
Messages
819
Likes
1,009
Location
Dirty Jerzey
I asked the question earlier in the thread and also verified the website and it appears they are passive when used with an analog source.
Thanks. It looks like the passive mode is still using the internal amp, tho from other posts later in this thread. I would think it should just pass everything thru with a constant delay offset across the board that, in principal, should be analogous to being passive. But I wonder if there are still active dsp corrections being applied, or does the headphone natively comply with the Harman target without it?
 

Cars-N-Cans

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
May 19, 2022
Messages
819
Likes
1,009
Location
Dirty Jerzey
Acc. to Amir:

Passive mode input has very high impedance:
Linear 990 ohm so definitely not true passive but an ohmic input resistance of an amplifier.
Does it still use internal DSP to comply with the target? I'm curious as its not necessarily the same as just providing straight amplification, for what its worth.
 

maverickronin

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jul 19, 2018
Messages
2,527
Likes
3,308
Location
Midwest, USA
I don't get the front localization from any headphone.

Do you ever use the crossfeed in Roon or your ADI-2 DAC? That really helps.

IMO listening to stereo mixes on headphones without at least simple crossfeed is just doing it wrong. I could never go back to listening without it.
 

mk1classic

Member
Joined
Aug 20, 2019
Messages
75
Likes
95
What alternative is there to these ML's if you want one headset for computer work with ANC, Teams meetings, music listening from computer or phone and regular phone calls ?
I can of course add a microphone to my Audeze LCD-XC's but they don't have the flexibility and don't have ANC which may be required in open office environment.
Apple products are no go...
 

solderdude

Grand Contributor
Joined
Jul 21, 2018
Messages
15,891
Likes
35,912
Location
The Neitherlands
Does it still use internal DSP to comply with the target? I'm curious as its not necessarily the same as just providing straight amplification, for what its worth.

There will have to be a 'target' that is similar to the non-ANC response and the ANC of course needs to work.
 

FeddyLost

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
May 24, 2020
Messages
752
Likes
542
I see this as solid performer in segment of "luxury branded lifestyle hi-fi".
Obviously, if it was called JBL, it would cost 300-400$ , but we have that we have.
IMO almost all reasons not to recommend these are subjective and inevitably arise from form factor and intended use case.
Making such headphones from magneplanars will lead to something not portable at all due to battery requirement.
 

mk1classic

Member
Joined
Aug 20, 2019
Messages
75
Likes
95
Who would by this for analogue use?

If JBL could sell a headaet with beryllium coated drivers for 300 to 400 USD, yes please! But I don't think they can.
I see this as a luxury highend all-in-one headset, but not for your daily commute.
 

Psycher1

Member
Joined
Jun 22, 2022
Messages
8
Likes
19
Spatial qualities requires having heard a Sennheiser HD800S and experienced its amazing quality to separate instruments. I am sure this is an artificial effect but it is the closest thing as a replacement for the imaging of speakers. This, combined with strong bass response and dynamics is what puts a massive smile on my face. Sadly few if any measurements back these things. As I say, headphone measurements are the most incomplete/variable of all the things we test.
I am curious if you've seen the RTings.com measurements? They have charts and targets/audibility thresholds for things like group delay and phase/amplitude/frequency mismatch (with targets relative to frequency, so some science is involved). Further, passive soundstage is measured in things I don't understand, also relative to frequency: PRTF (apparently pinna-related transfer function) accuracy/size/distance, "Openness", and "acoustic space excitation".

If possible, I'd love more discussion on these topics to see if they're worthwhile discussions. More data and more science into how we hear is only a good thing.
 

testp

Senior Member
Joined
Jul 22, 2020
Messages
391
Likes
230
I am impressed with performance. I am not sure what to think of price; not bad for second best tonality measured, but not good for something that feels like $300.

I wonder how this compares to Bose QC45, with build, tonality, and especially with noise cancellation.
i just recently compared QC45 and Sony 1000XM4 in store, with sony i heard more space and layers in bass.. :D, but I DID like Sony presentation of music more
both were better in comofort compared to JBL 460's

my dream headphones would be planar...cordless...&...not too thick or bulky
 

PeteL

Major Contributor
Joined
Jun 1, 2020
Messages
3,303
Likes
3,838
Acc. to Amir:

Passive mode input has very high impedance:
Linear 990 ohm so definitely not true passive but an ohmic input resistance of an amplifier.
I find that strange too, but according to this DOC:

HOW DO I LISTEN IN TRUE PASSIVE MODE (WIRED)? For airplanes or analog listening, plug 3.5mm audio plug into headphone audio input to engage passive (wired) audio. Headphones power off when audio cable is plugged in. Passive audio listening will work even if battery is depleted. Microphone and buttons are disabled during passive mode. NOTE: The № 5909 is only compatible with the Mark Levinson proprietary passive audio cables included.

Other paragraph as well rephrase that, so not sure what's going on.
 
Last edited:

Robbo99999

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 23, 2020
Messages
6,875
Likes
6,673
Location
UK
Well, if you put it next to a headphone with bad frequency response, it is likely to sound a lot better. My comparison is with another headphone with same tonality but much larger drivers which imparts its own pleasing, subjective effect. Same is true of other headphones with such drivers, once you use EQ to correct their tonality.
I'll just put in my own experience here with regard to soundstage. I don't think it's related to driver size, as in I don't think increased driver size improves soundstage. In fact I've found my dynamic driver headphones have better soundstage than my planar for some headphones. My consistent observation amoungst my own headphones (including pad depth changes) is that soundstage is maximised by angled drivers or angled pads whilst having an earcup that ensures that no part of your ear is touching the driver or earpad. I haven't been able to compare closed back vs open back in relation to those variables, but that aside I've found those variables to be the best indicator of soundstage in a headphone (once frequency response has been normalised to Harman through EQ).

EDIT: so K702 and HD560s are my best soundstage headphones out of the ones listed in my sig (for the reasons I conjecture).
 
Last edited:

PeteL

Major Contributor
Joined
Jun 1, 2020
Messages
3,303
Likes
3,838
I'll just put in my own experience here with regard to soundstage. I don't think it's related to driver size, as in I don't think increased driver size improves soundstage. In fact I've found my dynamic driver headphones have better soundstage than my planar for some headphones. My consistent observation amoungst my own headphones (including pad depth changes) is that soundstage is maximised by angled drivers or angled pads whilst having an earcup that ensures that no part of your ear is touching the driver or earpad. I haven't been able to compare closed back vs open back in relation to those variables, but that aside I've found those variables to be the best indicator of soundstage in a headphone (once frequency response has been normalised to Harman through EQ).
But some IEMs clearly spatialize better than other, maybe not as huge, but a clear 3D stage.
 

Robbo99999

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 23, 2020
Messages
6,875
Likes
6,673
Location
UK
But some IEMs clearly spatialize better than other, maybe not as huge, but a clear 3D stage.
Yes, frequency response at your eardrum is ultimately what determines soundstage, which is influenced by different measured frequency responses of headphones and indeed IEM's. So that would be the mechanism for some in ear headphones emphasising or deemphasising soundstage vs other IEM's. With over ear headphones is where I think the magic happens re soundstage differences between different models. In other words this relates to my observation that angled drivers or angled pads combined with no ear touching results in the best soundstage when all headphones have been normalised to the Harman Curve through EQ. In other words with over ear headphones I think there is a soundstage element that is present in the physical design of the headphone that isn't there in the same way with IEM's. But, at the same time, as I alluded to, frequency response at your eardrum is what matters, and different IEM's will do that too through whatever frequency response they have been designed with - measured frequency response on a dummy head definitely affects perceived soundstage - I've noticed that through EQ experiments with my own over ear headphones. But, still, I can't get all my over ear headphones to have the same good soundstage by using EQ - in fact only my K702 and HD560s stand out in this respect, and curiously they are the only two headphones of mine that have angled drivers or angled pads whilst having an earcup design that enables my ear to not touch the pad or driver at all - so it's like my ear is "floating in space" if you like. I will also say that my "ear floats in space" with my HD600, but the soundstage is super small on that one - and that one doesn't have angled pads or angled drivers...........so my experience tells me that for over ear headphones that angled drivers or angled pads combined with an ear cup design that makes sure your ear does not touch any part of the headphone is what maximises the inherent soundstage of a headphone. Sure, the measured frequency response through EQ changes (for example) will change your perception of the soundstage, but if you normalise each headphone to the same target curve, then my observation on improved soundstage through angled pads or angled drivers & earcup design so it doesn't touch your ears is what ultimately creates the maximum potential size of the soundstage. This is all very anecdotal, but indeed what I have learned directly from my own obsessive experience with EQ'ing & listening to my various headphones.

(The mechanism for this is I think two-fold, my own ideas. Firstly, I think the angled pads or angled drivers emphasise differences in your own anatomy or your outer ear, so imparting a certain individualised/personalised "EQ signature" to the incoming sound that is specific to your own anatomy that will ultimately shape the frequency response that arrives at your eardrum - thereby putting some of your overall HRTF into what you hear. Secondly, I think there is a psychological aspect of not feeling the headphone touching your ear which may somehow help in creating the picture that the sound is not coming from the stuff strapped to your head. That's my thinking on it re the mechanism for my observations.)
 
Last edited:

PeteL

Major Contributor
Joined
Jun 1, 2020
Messages
3,303
Likes
3,838
Yes, frequency response at your eardrum is ultimately what determines soundstage, which is influenced by different measured frequency responses of headphones and indeed IEM's. So that would be the mechanism for some in ear headphones emphasising or deemphasising soundstage vs other IEM's. With over ear headphones is where I think the magic happens re soundstage differences between different models. In other words this relates to my observation that angled drivers or angled pads combined with no ear touching results in the best soundstage when all headphones have been normalised to the Harman Curve through EQ. In other words with over ear headphones I think there is a soundstage element that is present in the physical design of the headphone that isn't there in the same way with IEM's. But, at the same time, as I alluded to, frequency response at your eardrum is what matters, and different IEM's will do that too through whatever frequency response they have been designed with - measured frequency response on a dummy head definitely affects perceived soundstage - I've noticed that through EQ experiments with my own over ear headphones. But, still, I can't get all my over ear headphones to have the same good soundstage by using EQ - in fact only my K702 and HD560s stand out in this respect, and curiously they are the only two headphones of mine that have angled drivers or angled pads whilst having an earcup design that enables my ear to not touch the pad or driver at all - so it's like my ear is "floating in space" if you like. I will also say that my "ear floats in space" with my HD600, but the soundstage is super small on that one - and that one doesn't have angled pads or angled drivers...........so my experience tells me that for over ear headphones that angled drivers or angled pads combined with an ear cup design that makes sure your ear does not touch any part of the headphone is what maximises the inherent soundstage of a headphone. Sure, the measured frequency response through EQ changes (for example) will change your perception of the soundstage, but if you normalise each headphone to the same target curve, then my observation on improved soundstage through angled pads or angled drivers & earcup design so it doesn't touch your ears is what ultimately creates the maximum potential size of the soundstage. This is all very anecdotal, but indeed what I have learned directly from my own obsessive experience with EQ'ing & listening to my various headphones.

(The mechanism for this is I think two-fold, my own ideas. Firstly, I think the angled pads or angled drivers emphasise differences in your own anatomy or your outer ear, so imparting a certain individualised/personalised "EQ signature" to the incoming sound that is specific to your own anatomy that will ultimately shape the frequency response that arrives at your eardrum - thereby putting some of your overall HRTF into what you hear. Secondly, I think there is a psychological aspect of not feeling the headphone touching your ear which may somehow help in creating the picture that the sound is not coming from the stuff strapped to your head. That's my thinking on it re the mechanism for my observations.)
Just take a look at the underlined, and I am sure you'll realise the contradictions. In science, which is what this forum should be about, we don't reach conclusions based on aneccotal observations.
 
Top Bottom