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March Audio P502 Stereo Amplifier Measurements

DonH56

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I can never understand why any components that need cooling do not have holes or slots in the bottom of the case as well as the sides or top. Surely it is as important to let cold air in as to is to let hot air out, and perhaps with careful placement you could greatly reduce the number or size of the holes or slots?

You'd have to define "need", natch. Thermal management is usually part of the design process and includes data on component lifetime and overall system lifetime and failure rate (MTBF - mean time before failure) as well as cost and performance trades. Without saying they are right or wrong, valid, worthwhile or not, here are some reasons off-the-cuff:
  1. Thermal stability can also be important, as in keeping the temperature from changing (much) after reaching normal operating state. Precision clock sources usually include an oven (heater) to provide a stable temperature-controlled environment. Device (transistor, resistor, etc.) performance varies with temperature so sometimes it is better to let it warm up and stay there instead of having random airflow change the temperature. Yes, well-designed components should not, but OTOH the cost goes up when designing for that sort of stability (which is usually much better than needed for audio, at least IME).
  2. Related to above, sometimes you want to control the thermal environment, so ventilation holes and airflow are controlled to direct the air where you want it and not to other places that might cause thermal shifts and such. That precludes just drilling holes everywhere, or randomly enlarging them, etc. If cooling was all that mattered, you could just take the top off and place a little fan blowing on the board(s). But consider that a lot of electronic things, like your PC and enterprise servers, are designed for proper airflow with the covers in place. Remove them, and the server will overheat (I am around such things in my day job and have seen it more than once -- removing the cover to work on them causes them to overheat as the air from the fans leaves the case instead of being forced through the air tunnels to cool the chips inside).
  3. There is also shielding to consider, one reason for not taking the top off, and more and larger holes can lead to EMI/EMC issues (ingress and egress of undesired signals). That is one reason a lot of little holes are used instead of fewer, larger holes -- less LF leakage (in and out).
  4. Holes and slots cost money in manufacturing the cases and restrict component placement inside the case. Adding more might not improve things (see points above) and just cost more money. Components may be place such that additional holes do not help, e.g. on the bottom when there is a circuit board above that blocks airflow from that direction anyway.
  5. Drawing cold air in also means drawing in dust and such that can coat the components inside, leading to worse thermal issues than if the airflow was more restricted, and affecting circuit performance both through heat and potentially leakage paths (a worst-case example would be dust and grunge leading to arcing on a high-voltage board and failure of the device).
Sure there are more, but five is a nice place to stop. - Don
 

bigguyca

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In this implementation it won't change. The input to the amp is balanced. Assuming correctly wired rca to xlr cable (don't use one of those cylindrical adaptors) and same input/output voltage.

There is a bit of a misconception out there that balanced is, or has to be symmetric, its not the case.

Balanced is equal impendence to ground. Balanced had better be symmetric. A balanced circuit doesn't mean that differential signaling is necessarily used. All of the signal could be on one leg or the signal distribution could be asymmetric.
 

March Audio

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Balanced is equal impendence to ground. Balanced had better be symmetric. A balanced circuit doesn't mean that differential signaling is necessarily used. All of the signal could be on one leg or the signal distribution could be asymmetric.
I meant in terms of signal differential voltage applied, which was the relevant point in the question. i.e. 2 volts differential in is 2 volts differential in whether its sourced from a balanced or single ended output.

https://www.diyaudio.com/archive/bl...d1460406090-bruno-putzeys-micropre-g-word.pdf

Many people assume the input has to be symetric, i.e.

1581381784567.png

If those two signals are neatly symmetrical, about what potential exactly are they symmetrical? The source’s return node? The chassis? And does it even matter? The input should only care about the difference between the two. The whole reason why the input measures the voltage between the two wires is precisely because it’s trying to ignore those irrelevant potentials.


It doesnt. This works just the same

1581381827585.png

This is just as good as the previous one. There’s no pressing need to drive both wires actively. One will do. On the receiving end it’s only the potential difference that matters. If one wire is connected to whatever node the source calls “my zero volts” the receiver duly subtracts the potentials of the two wires, regardless where its own personal zero volts might be with respect to the source’s.
I'm 1.8 m tall when I measure myself standing on the office floor. But this is equally true when I’m standing on a landfill. If you want to know my height, simply subtract the altitude of the refuse horizon from the altitude of my bald patch. There’s no need for me to be dug in halfway.



So really an issue of terminology, we are all in the habit of using "balanced" when there is more technical subtlety to it.
 
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pma

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I meant in terms of signal differential voltage applied, which was the relevant point in the question. i.e. 2 volts differential in is 2 volts differential in whether its sourced from a balanced or single ended output.

https://www.diyaudio.com/archive/bl...d1460406090-bruno-putzeys-micropre-g-word.pdf

Many people assume the input has to be symetric, i.e.

View attachment 49608
If those two signals are neatly symmetrical, about what potential exactly are they symmetrical? The source’s return node? The chassis? And does it even matter? The input should only care about the difference between the two. The whole reason why the input measures the voltage between the two wires is precisely because it’s trying to ignore those irrelevant potentials.


It doesnt. This works just the same

View attachment 49609
This is just as good as the previous one. There’s no pressing need to drive both wires actively. One will do. On the receiving end it’s only the potential difference that matters. If one wire is connected to whatever node the source calls “my zero volts” the receiver duly subtracts the potentials of the two wires, regardless where its own personal zero volts might be with respect to the source’s.
I'm 1.8 m tall when I measure myself standing on the office floor. But this is equally true when I’m standing on a landfill. If you want to know my height, simply subtract the altitude of the refuse horizon from the altitude of my bald patch. There’s no need for me to be dug in halfway.



So really an issue of terminology, we are all in the habit of using "balanced" when there is more technical subtlety to it.

"This is just as good as the previous one."

Not exactly. To get high CMR, you need signal source impedances in +IN and -IN inputs of your amp to be same. In the "symmetry is useless" image, +IN is sourced from output impedance of the signal source (50 ohm - 1 kohm usually) and -IN is sourced from almost zero impedance. Such impedance mismatch (with input impedances divider) results in dramatic worsening of CMR of the balanced input. This is the 1st point. The 2nd, less important point, is partial cancellation of even harmonic distortion components if the input is driven from a symmetrical balanced output.

Your image for SE source should look like this, with source output resistance added to the -IN wire.

1581409434758.png
 

March Audio

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"This is just as good as the previous one."

Not exactly. To get high CMR, you need signal source impedances in +IN and -IN inputs of your amp to be same. In the "symmetry is useless" image, +IN is sourced from output impedance of the signal source (50 ohm - 1 kohm usually) and -IN is sourced from almost zero impedance. Such impedance mismatch (with input impedances divider) results in dramatic worsening of CMR of the balanced input. This is the 1st point. The 2nd, less important point, is partial cancellation of even harmonic distortion components if the input is driven from a symmetrical balanced output.

Your image for SE source should look like this, with source output resistance added to the -IN wire.

View attachment 49676
I will let you argue with Bruno Putzeys. ;)

Read the link, page 6
 
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pma

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I will let you argue with Bruno Putzeys. ;)

Read the link

This is not needed, me and Bruno will find same meaning about this. He is well educated and knowledgeable. If you do not know what you speak about, please see the effect of impedance mismatch to INA134 balanced input receiver. Mismatch is from 0 ohm (matched) to 400 ohm.

Or maybe you might like to study some literature, like this from TI, to understand CMR in balanced inputs.
http://www.ti.com/lit/an/slyt310/slyt310.pdf

1581411593730.png
 

March Audio

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It is needed. You obviously haven't read his paper linked above. The error of trying to match currents. In the real world you have no idea what the source component impedance is. With your suggested circuit what resistance do you put in? What do you then do with a different source? It's just not a solution.

Yes I am quite aware of the cmr issues thanks. Your "educational pointers" are not required. You have also made assumptions about Bruno's diagrams above.

The effect on cmr with an SE source (unbalanced impedance) is not the subject. The question was about SINAD. I commented on output voltage, and the symmetry in question was that of driving legs in opposite polarities.

The SINAD would only change if cm noise became a significant problem. This is extremely unlikely. CMR won't be worse than single ended ;). Probably still 50dB better ;)
 
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miero

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Does the input buffer of P502 use a similar circuit as Bruno's preamp? Is a schematics of the buffer available/public?

Screenshot_2020-02-11 Microsoft Word - balanced doc - 1926d1460406090-bruno-putzeys-micropre-g...png
 

McFly

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So was there any investigation into the Sinad channel differences? I understand the mains noise issue was sorted out.
 

tw99

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Does anyone have this amplifier? And what do you think of it? And with what did you compare it with?
I am looking for maybe a replacement for the Lyngdorf SDA 2175.

Yes, I have one. Personally I like it. It drives my speakers with ease, is small, quite cheap, and energy efficient.
 

SIY

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You will not hear a difference with your Lyngdorf

Yes, highly unlikely. The unasked question is, "What is the problem with your current amplifier that needs solving with a new one?" That can be a guide to a replacement that solves the problem.
 

Bliman

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Yes, highly unlikely. The unasked question is, "What is the problem with your current amplifier that needs solving with a new one?" That can be a guide to a replacement that solves the problem.
It has been sent back to Lyngdorf. And for repairing it costs 545€ and that for me is pretty much. Also, I have the Lyngdorf a long time now. So I don't know if I should pay so much for the repair.
 

SIY

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It has been sent back to Lyngdorf. And for repairing it costs 545€ and that for me is pretty much. Also, I have the Lyngdorf a long time now. So I don't know if I should pay so much for the repair.
Good reason!
 

thebible

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looking forward to this. ordered one a couple days ago. it will be complementing an AVR. purpose is to get better sound clarity when playing music in 2 channel mode. it will be paired with a NAD C658 (aware of the review on here).
 

thebible

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It is needed. You obviously haven't read his paper linked above. The error of trying to match currents. In the real world you have no idea what the source component impedance is. With your suggested circuit what resistance do you put in? What do you then do with a different source? It's just not a solution.

Yes I am quite aware of the cmr issues thanks. Your "educational pointers" are not required. You have also made assumptions about Bruno's diagrams above.

The effect on cmr with an SE source (unbalanced impedance) is not the subject. The question was about SINAD. I commented on output voltage, and the symmetry in question was that of driving legs in opposite polarities.

The SINAD would only change if cm noise became a significant problem. This is extremely unlikely. CMR won't be worse than single ended ;). Probably still 50dB better ;)

Hello March Audio I purchased one of your amplifiers some days back but have not received any notification since. Can you confirm if you have any in stock? If not what is the expected time for the P502 to ship?
 

March Audio

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Hello March Audio I purchased one of your amplifiers some days back but have not received any notification since. Can you confirm if you have any in stock? If not what is the expected time for the P502 to ship?
@thebible can you please contact me via email with your details so I can check the status of your order. I can't identify it otherwise :)

Regards
Alan
[email protected]

As a general comment covid 19 is causing significant disruption to the supply chain and potentially extended shipping times for components to us and products to customers. The number of flights has globally reduced dramatically. Its very unpredictable and the timing information from couriers is often inaccurate. We have had tracking information saying items will arrive in 2 days and then take over 2 weeks and vice versa 2 weeks and taken 2 days.

We have put information on our website at the ordering and checkout pages that warns of these potential delays. Although it's unpredictable we have stated about a week's delay at the moment and that we will contact customers if any extended delay is expected.

I hope people can appreciate the difficulties covid is causing that are beyond our control and customers patience is very much appreciated in these challenging times.
 
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