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March Audio P451 Purifi 1ET400A Mono Blocks

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I think many people interested in buying this purifi-amp are typically in to technically optimizing their setup in general.
it attracts that kind of people.
And that should include optimizing the gain structure, if possible.
I refer you to post 67. Most customers are not technical.

Take a look around a few manufacturers websites and check their amp gain levels. A few examples

Bryston 23/29dB
Krell 26dB
Anthem 29dB
Audiolab 29dB
Emotiva 29dB
Naim 29dB
Nord 27dB
Appollon 26.5dB
 
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rajapruk

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People looking for the best measuring amps from ASR are mainly considering right now:

Benchmark AHB2
Hypex nc400
March Audio with Purifi IET400

2 of them have variable gain... Good! Would make my choice easier if I was shopping :)
 

stunta

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Yes, sending Keith his first pair next week

That post, in isolation, is rather funny :p

People looking for the best measuring amps from ASR are mainly considering right now:

Benchmark AHB2
Hypex nc400
March Audio with Purifi IET400

2 of them have variable gain... Good! Would make my choice easier if I was shopping :)

I didn't think the NC400 had an easy (non-invasive) way to adjust gain. Can you clarify?
 

rajapruk

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It is variable gain on nc400 by changing value of an small surface mount resistor, r141.
Can be done by someone good at soldering.
If r141 is removed, gain is 13dB.
 

stunta

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It is variable gain on nc400 by changing value of an small surface mount resistor, r141.
Can be done by someone good at soldering.
If r141 is removed, gain is 13dB.

Soldering to change to one value and then soldering again to revert it? Would it not void the warranty? The Benchmark has 3 settings with an external switch. Not quite comparable IMO.
 

Casey Leedom

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Whoa. 20-25dB speaker sensitivity is normal? I don't think I've ever seen one that low. I mean, I'm not looking for these figures typically but the lowest I remember seeing was something like 85dB and the highest something like 105dB.

In any case, I had thought that the issue was mostly about matching Preamplifiers and Amplifiers in terms of Voltage Output Range on the Preamplifier and the Voltage Gain on the Amplifier into the Impedance Load of the Speaker? And I guess also the Impedance Matching of the Preamplifier and Amplifier. For instance, if the Preamplifier only outputs Voltage signals up to, say 1.0V, but in order to drive the Amplifier to supply Power into the Speaker's Impedance Load you'd need to supply it with, say, 2.0V, you won't be able to get full Power out of the Amplifier to drive the Speakers to louder volumes. Conversely, if the Preamplifier generates up to, say 2.0V, but the Amplifier will start clipping into the Speaker Impedance Load at, say, 0.1V, then you may find your Preamplifier operating in a range where its inherent Noise becomes dominant enough to hear ...

Please feel free to correct me. As 've said, I'm just trying to understand what real issues there may be in this argument.

Casey
 

Spocko

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Hi

I wasn't aware Benchmark are making any specific marketing claims about this. Perhaps you could point that out as I may have missed it. .
From John Siau:
Low Gain – The AHB2 has a low gain setting that optimizes the gain structure of professional monitoring systems. Maximum rated output is reached at an input signal level of 22 dBu. This places the upstream equipment in an ideal operating range to maximize the SNR of the monitoring chain. Most power amplifiers have far too much gain, and this degrades noise performance of the overall system. The AHB2 has an ultra low-noise input amplifier with two gain boost settings that can be enabled to allow direct interfacing with Hi-Fi components that usually operate at significantly lower signal output levels.”
(My Emphasis added: he’s mentioned this point also during interviews when the AHB2 was released a few years back)

https://benchmarkmedia.com/blogs/ap...radical-approach-to-audio-power-amplification
 
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Spocko

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I bet most people will want to use your amp with balanced outputs DACs, in which case 4V/14dBu will be the standard for consumer level units and your amp will have 6dB too much gain, ie 6dB too much noise (audibility of which depends on the transducer alright, but also on the DAC output noise...) and also 6dB of potential clipping toward fullscale (=danger for the ears and tweeters).
Some users might also want to use pro level balanced DACs, with higher output level options such as RME (19dBu, 11dB over sensitivity here) or Benchmark (27dBu, 19dB over sensitivity), further increasing the mismatch and potential pitfalls. Using higher output levels not only opens the potential for a higher dynamic range (which you might not need depending on the situation, as you noted), but also improves immunity from external interference (which is often useful in real world situations). Furthermore, many pro units will simply not give you any "consumer level" output options (many pro DACs and processors do this, BSS ones for example, among many others. In fact having variable analog output level options is quite uncommon in the pro world), leaving you with digital attenuation as the only option, with far from ideal dynamic ranges as a result. In many cases that is going to produce audible hiss on any transducer.

Gain structure optimization is what matters, much more so than the individual performance of a given piece of equipment in the chain.

Having a range of selectable gain/sensitivity options to accommodate all these common scenarios would be useful here.
That is what Benchmark does with the ahb2, and what I would call a "much wider range of options available" scenario, and appropriate for a premium amp sporting SOTA purifi modules.

Now if "the rest of us" are people using unblanced 2V DACs then alright ;)
BINGO, I am planning to connect my new Topping D90 directly to the March Audio P502 via XLR fixed gain mode (4V) with digital volume control by MiniDSP SHD Studio. Thankfully my speakers are barely 86 dB efficient, so it shouldn’t be an issue.
 

pos

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Thankfully my speakers are barely 86 dB efficient, so it shouldn’t be an issue.
Should be fine as the D90 has DNR to spare. Just make you sure you never go above -6dBFS or you might blow your tweeters (and ears).
You might as well go for a cheaper 2V unbalanced DAC and use the RCA to XLR cables March Audio is also selling (or make yours).
 
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pos

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The noise of the source is not an issue with normal sensitivity speakers.
The noise of a consumer level source is not an issue with "normal" (low) sensitivity speakers.
It becomes one with a pro level one though, especially noisy a one like a DCX and many other such devices, even on your "normal" speakers.

In any case if one does not optimize its gain structure then it is of no use to go for high performance amps or sources: it is just a waste of money, pure and simple.
Gain structure optimization is easy, cheap, and plenty of solutions exist. Lower noise sources and lower sensitivity drivers certainly help mitigating the manifestation of a mismatch, but this is just throwing money and/or power at a problem instead of addressing it properly.
 

pos

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Soldering to change to one value and then soldering again to revert it? Would it not void the warranty? The Benchmark has 3 settings with an external switch. Not quite comparable IMO.
That is still miles better than not being able to change it at all.
You have to consider that once it is set to match the type of sources you are using there are no reason for you to change it ever again.
That would typically be either 26dB (ie no change) for unbalanced sources, 20dB for consumer level balanced sources, and 13dB (ie simply removing the resistor) for pro level ones.

Bruno said incorporating a switch there would have compromised the performance, unfortunately...
 
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With the upcoming Ghent Purifi kit, one will be able to buy a stereo version with the Purifi input board for only $1200. And you'll have the option to run buffered, or unbuffered with simple jumpers. Knowing this why would anyone pay over double for these? Where's the $1300 "value add"? One could buy 2 of the Ghent amps for less and bi-amp each speaker if they wanted. And we actually have measurements of the Purifi amp. Where March doesn't provide any because he can't afford the proper equipment to test his amplifiers properly.
 

pos

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@Science is fun, in the eval board the bypass option is there to let the implementer add its own - potentially unity gain - buffer.
Running the amp buffer-less is a bad idea in most situation.
 
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@Science is fun, in the eval board the bypass option is there to let the implementer add its own - potentially unity gain - buffer.
Running the amp buffer-less is a bad idea in most situation.

As long as your source can drive the 4.4 ohm input impedance then there's absolutely no issue running it with the buffer bypassed. Any source worth buying can do this easily. Purifi themselves run the amp with the buffer bypassed from the Mola Mola Tambaqui DAC. It sounds and measures way better with the buffer bypassed.
 
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Massimo

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With the upcoming Ghent Purifi kit, one will be able to buy a stereo version with the Purifi input board for only $1200. And you'll have the option to run buffered, or unbuffered with simple jumpers. Knowing this why would anyone pay over double for these? Where's the $1300 "value add"? One could buy 2 of the Ghent amps for less and bi-amp each speaker if they wanted. And we actually have measurements of the Purifi amp. Where March doesn't provide any because he can't afford the proper equipment to test his amplifiers properly.

Hardly a fair comparison. The kit (assuming it’s available since there’s no info on Ghent’s site) is a DIY project with no warranty. It’s also a stereo unit with a single power supply in a cheap case (I have used the Ghent cases for several NCore builds). The March offering is a pair of mono power amps and a finished product with 3 year warranty.
 

pos

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As long as your source can drive the 4.4 ohm input impedance then there's absolutely no issue running it with the buffer bypassed. Any source worth buying can do this easily. Purifi themselves run the amp with the buffer bypassed from the Mola Mola Tambaqui DAC. It sounds and measures way better with the buffer bypassed.
Let's avoid getting this thread further off track with DIY matters. There is a dedicated thread here: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/diy-purifi-amp-builds.10478/
 
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Hardly a fair comparison. The kit (assuming it’s available since there’s no info on Ghent’s site) is a DIY project with no warranty. It’s also a stereo unit with a single power supply in a cheap case (I have used the Ghent cases for several NCore builds). The March offering is a pair of mono power amps and a finished product with 3 year warranty.

The Ghent case is probably heavier built than the March. Both are made in China. There's 2 wires to connect, and a few screws to tighten. Much easier than even the NC400 kit. And I'm sure there will be many offering assembly services for $100 like there is for the NC400 kit. It uses the exact same supply March uses which can provide 600w more peak power than 2 modules draw at clipping. Check out the ASR review on the Purifi kit if you think a single supply is an issue.

And I'm pretty sure Purifi also offers a warranty.
 

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Should be fine as the D90 has DNR to spare. Just make you sure you never go above -6dBFS or you might blow your tweeters (and ears).
You might as well go for a cheaper 2V unbalanced DAC and use the RCA to XLR cables March Audio is also selling (or make yours).
True, maybe I should use the D90’s volume section after all
 
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People looking for the best measuring amps from ASR are mainly considering right now:

Benchmark AHB2
Hypex nc400
March Audio with Purifi IET400

2 of them have variable gain... Good! Would make my choice easier if I was shopping :)
The NC400 is not variable gain
 
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March Audio

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The noise of a consumer level source is not an issue with "normal" (low) sensitivity speakers.
It becomes one with a pro level one though, especially noisy a one like a DCX and many other such devices, even on your "normal" speakers.

In any case if one does not optimize its gain structure then it is of no use to go for high performance amps or sources: it is just a waste of money, pure and simple.
Gain structure optimization is easy, cheap, and plenty of solutions exist. Lower noise sources and lower sensitivity drivers certainly help mitigating the manifestation of a mismatch, but this is just throwing money and/or power at a problem instead of addressing it properly.
Pos, with respect I'm going to call a halt to this.

This is an amp designed for normal sensitivity speakers and normal domestic customers with normal domestic equipment.

Yours is a corner case. I am not designing for the 0.01% of corner cases. I make no apology for this.

The amp is extremely quiet. With normal sensitivity speakers you hear no hiss even if driven directly from a dac. You describe a problem that just does not exist for 99.99% of customers.

Your choice of 110dB/w/m sensitivity drivers is what creates your problem, not the amp.

As pointed out above most other amp manufacturers don't do what you are asking for either.

If the amp doesn't suit your specific requirements please buy a different one, or more likely you will have to DIY to acheive your goals.
 
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