March Audio HPA1

[March Audio]

Confession? There was nothing to confess. I hid nothing but was badgered into doing so.

Thomas, I know you think you did a great and balanced job of moderating but sorry many members don't share that view. They told me so. You persisting in this means that you are learning in public that your view will be challenged.

What level of scrutiny? Very good question. What level of scrutiny is reasonable?

Should I describe the circuit diagram?
Yes or no?

Should I telll you what the active components are?
Yes or no?

Should I show photos of the board revealing layout and components?
Yes or no?

Do you think it's unreasonable that my view is that I am only going to release high level information?
Yes or no?

If you come back with some evasive response I know that my view that these things should not be under any expectation to be revealed is correct.

People are going to believe what they want to believe. Nothing I can do about that now. The products performance will speak for itself. If people think it's an OEM board then fine. I'm not going to reveal details just to try and convince otherwise.

 

[Thomas savage]

Confession? There was nothing to confess. I hid nothing but was badgered into doing so.

Thomas, I know you think you did a great and balanced job of moderating but sorry many members don't share that view. They told me so. You persisting in this means that you are learning in public that your view will be challenged.

What level of scrutiny. Good question. What level of scrutiny is reasonable?

Should I describe the circuit diagram?
Yes or no?

Should I telll you what the active components are?
Yes or no?

Should I show photos of the board revealing layout and components?
Yes or no?

Do you think it's unreasonable that my view is that I am only going to release high level information?
Yes or no?

If you come back with some evasive response I know that my view that these things should not be under any expectation to be revealed is correct.

People are going to believe what they want to believe. Nothing I can do about that now. The products performance will speak for itself. If people think it's an OEM board then fine. I'm not going to reveal details just to try and convince otherwise.

I was asleep for most of the problems there, Am i to be held responsible for what happens on the forum when I’m alseep? The situation carried nuance most are likely not considering however when awake my support of you in that thread is clear for all to see.

Well we can review this headphone amp , do a tear down and take some internal pictures . Members will discuss what they see and if you participate in those discussions will ask you questions just like any other manufacturer here. Amir can talk about the design and what he likes about the layout .

I can’t really recall this being a problem before? If you don’t want that you will have to talk to amir, it’s not my area.

I just moderate content , poorly it seems but then I’m cheap so what can you expect.

Now my mince pie is cold and the clotted cream is not melting , I hope you are happy.

 

[rebbiputzmaker]

No Thomas Rebbs comments were clearly aimed as a provocative wind up. You know this.
.

Please do not attribute your ill will and bad intention to other people. Why do you think it is ok to insult and abuse anyone who does march to your drum beat.

Another example when someome asked about switchable gain, which would make a product more usable. The person was told it would hurt sound quality. Seems not to hurt benchmark quality. Maybe people are just interested in a better product and are not attacking you. Not everyone here is stupid as you seem to think.

 

[March Audio]

A tear down once a product is out on sale in the wild is not an issue. You can't control that. However expecting advanced detailed information on a forthcoming product is, for obvious reasons.

 

[rebbiputzmaker]

Ok question, do you think it's reasonable that if I have developed a circuit that no one else appears to be utilising and performs better than most out t here that I should want to protect that IP? At least until the product is released when it becomes difficult / impossible to protect. Yes or no?

So why didn't you just say that from the beginning. There is nothing wrong with the truth.

 

[Thomas savage]

Id like us to stop going round in circles, tbh this situation with March Audio has been tricky for us all including Alan himself. We could all of handled things better ( other than me obviously I’m beyond reproach lol) but I’d encourage everyone to step back from current narrative here.

We should be discussing the product, not me , the forum or what Alan had for breakfast the day he soldered the led on.

Let’s get back to that please .

 

[March Audio]

Bugger you beat me to it

I was just wanting to make a public apology for my outburst, to Thomas and other members.

Been a rough week for various reasons and it's made me some what over reactive, but that is no excuse for unacceptable behaviour.

We are all here to enjoy the informative good nature of this forum and there is no place for stupidity like mine you just observed. It spoils it for everyone. I will be more mindful in future.

So sorry again and enjoy the holidays.

Cheers

Alan

 

[rebbiputzmaker]

Bugger you beat me to it

I was just wanting to make a public apology for my outburst, to Thomas and other members.

Been a rough week for various reasons and it's made me some what over reactive, but that is no excuse for unacceptable behaviour.

We are all here to enjoy the informative good nature of this forum and there is no place for stupidity like mine you just observed. It spoils it for everyone. I will be more mindful in future.

So sorry again and enjoy the holidays.

Cheers

Alan

Merry Christmas !!!!!

 

[PierreV]

It's mostly a matter of perception and rubbing people in the wrong direction imho.

First, let's get this out of the way, I think @March Audio is perfectly entitled to build, sell and support stuff around various components. I am fine with uber expensive cases, pots costing more than the circuit or anything similar.

One way this could have gone very well could have been "@March Audio, an enthusiast like most of us, has discovered and tested a wonderful new board. You can use it as such, a bit rough around the edges, or wait for the nice enclosures (and eventual fine tuning) Alan will soon offer".

Instead, we ended up with trolling, dumb semi secrecy that was so transparent it was going to blow up anyway, bad reactions to trolling, frankly racist comments directed at the Chinese (btw I did quite a bit of business with them and I have absolutely zero complaints and respect their technical abilities and efficiency), aggressive covert competitors.... So sad. To be honest, I felt a bit cheated by the way things played out on a site that claims, and mostly delivers, an objective and transparent approach.

On top of that, this kind of stuff might be used to discredit the philosophy of this site.

Now, to go back on track, I think Alan should go on developing, but maybe have a thicker skin and be more open. There's nothing wrong about using Khadas boards or hypex modules and building stuff around them. As far as I know, even one of the Marantz I own, marketed as a Ken Ishiwata design, uses Hypex OEM stuff. That isn't bad per se. What might be bad is hiding the fact for marketing reasons, especially in boutique designs.

 

[SIY]

Alan, it's your business, so your decision about what to reveal or not reveal. Reality is that if there's anything worth stealing in there, it will get stolen. Putting it off a few weeks doesn't seem to me to be worth it, but I'm not the one with skin in the game.

What I would ask for, and not begrudge a non-answer, is a general description of the circuit and some whys. And, of course, measured performance data. But that's because I'm a design geek, not a potential customer.

 

[Headphonaholic]

Wow, complete lunacy. I've only been on this forum for about 8 months, lurked for a month or so prior, don't believe I've ever seen anything quite like this before. The Yggdrasil reviews got interesting but that wasn't the same.

Alan had a bit of a PR misstep with the dac and he set the record straight in the review thread. It became obvious from the measurements that the dac was using an OEM board which he has since confirmed (albeit after things went a bit too far). He then goes on to say "The headphone amp is my own design, pcb etc. It's not an OEM board.". There you have it, his design. Considering the measurements earlier in this thread that show performance better than anything else measured on this forum, I would say it's safe to say it's probably his design.

Cut the man some slack.

This isn't a DIY endeavor, Alan is trying to make a business of this. Who in their right mind would release detailed information about their product prior to release? Heck many wouldn't even after release.

I'm a software engineer, if I was releasing a commercial product, I would never disclose details on how it works. If you work for a company and you disclose such information you'll be fired.

Ultimately this forum prides itself on shedding light on products and how they are made and perform. That is why I am here and I am sure why everyone else is here. But where is the rule that a manufacturer is required to disclose detailed information about their products? If it exists I wasn't aware of it. Last I knew, we found that stuff out on our own, not by directly asking the manufacturer. Doesn't that ruin some of the fun if he just tells us anyway? If this is the precedence we are going to set I don't think many manufacturers would want to take part in this forum quite frankly.

 

[Pillars]

I like the idea of this amp TBH.. far more than the DAC. However, serious concern is present in a DAC/amp combo that is software controlled purely. What happens when a pop-up occurs at full volume or some other unfortunate issue? Most users max windows volume and rely on knobs. Isn't there degradation using the windows volume slider?

 

[RayDunzl]

Isn't there degradation using the windows volume slider?

Can you hear it?

 

[Headphonaholic]

However, serious concern is present in a DAC/amp combo that is software controlled purely. What happens when a pop-up occurs at full volume or some other unfortunate issue? Most users max windows volume and rely on knobs.

For many years I've been using windows volume control with my 5.1 surround sound on my gaming rig to avoid monkeying around with my av receiver. I haven't experienced an issue with something overriding my windows volume. I do also use my headphone amps with dacs that are set to 100%. You do need to be mindful of the volume, but that can be true of amps or dacs with volume control. My behavior involving volume control is strictly to lower it if I am not using it to avoid being surprised the next time I use it.

I did had the pleasure of testing the prototype of the HPA1 and didn't mind the lack of a volume knob (likely because I've used windows volume for so many years). That said I do own a Das Keyboard with volume knob right there next to my mouse so with my setup windows volume control is more convenient.

As for degradation of sound quality when using the volume knob, I haven't seen any evidence supporting this conclusion. I'll let Alan or someone more technical discuss that though.

 

[Dialectic]

Wow, complete lunacy. I've only been on this forum for about 8 months, lurked for a month or so prior, don't believe I've ever seen anything quite like this before. The Yggdrasil reviews got interesting but that wasn't the same.

Alan had a bit of a PR misstep with the dac and he set the record straight in the review thread. It became obvious from the measurements that the dac was using an OEM board which he has since confirmed (albeit after things went a bit too far). He then goes on to say "The headphone amp is my own design, pcb etc. It's not an OEM board.". There you have it, his design. Considering the measurements earlier in this thread that show performance better than anything else measured on this forum, I would say it's safe to say it's probably his design.

Cut the man some slack.

This isn't a DIY endeavor, Alan is trying to make a business of this. Who in their right mind would release detailed information about their product prior to release? Heck many wouldn't even after release.

I'm a software engineer, if I was releasing a commercial product, I would never disclose details on how it works. If you work for a company and you disclose such information you'll be fired.

Ultimately this forum prides itself on shedding light on products and how they are made and perform. That is why I am here and I am sure why everyone else is here. But where is the rule that a manufacturer is required to disclose detailed information about their products? If it exists I wasn't aware of it. Last I knew, we found that stuff out on our own, not by directly asking the manufacturer. Doesn't that ruin some of the fun if he just tells us anyway? If this is the precedence we are going to set I don't think many manufacturers would want to take part in this forum quite frankly.

Agreed on all counts. There was a significant marketing misstep with the DAC, which seems to be a technically excellent device with nice fit and finish. Some members of this forum do not want to pay for anything--including well-engineered audio gear--and seem to believe than any markup results in a ripoff.

The HPA1 sounds good, and Alan has been clear that it is not based on an off-the-shelf design. I'm sure that, when a teardown happens, the guys who hate paying for anything will be quick to criticize it for its parts cost. Those guys are not future customers of March Audio, so their opinions, however noisily expressed, just don't matter.

We should move on and perhaps also stop using the term 'Chi-Fi' pejoratively. As Amir has demonstrated, some Chinese gear is excellent.

 

[Pillars]

I think the problem was rooted in the large markup of an already cheap existing DAC board for things like QC, warranty, looks, experience etc. I am focusing on the amp though. As I understand every 6 dB of software attenuation is equivalent to reducing the bit depth by one. So, to reduce an amp of this power low enough to be listenable will that have an impact on performance? Though, does the benefit of no potentiometer outweigh anything?

 

[Dialectic]

I think the problem was rooted in the large markup of an already cheap existing DAC board for things like QC, warranty, looks, experience etc. I am focusing on the amp though. As I understand every 6 dB of software attenuation is equivalent to reducing the bit depth by one. So, to reduce an amp of this power low enough to be listenable will that have an impact on performance? Though, does the benefit of no potentiometer outweigh anything?

Calculated on the basis of parts alone, the markup is not large in this niche product area, and I think one should not exclude Mr. March's other costs, such as testing many other DAC boards before he found the Khadas tone board.

The benefit of no potentiometer outweighs the cost, if any, of digital volume control, which has better channel matching and no mechanical parts to fail over time, as potentiometer parts will. In modern playback software, the volume control is usually handled in 32 bits and then, if your DAC requires it, can be dithered to 24 bits. There will be no degradation that human ears can notice.

See here for some observations on the Foobar 2000 volume control. I imagine that Roon's works similarly.

 

[RayDunzl]

As I understand every 6 dB of software attenuation is equivalent to reducing the bit depth by one.

See https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ttenuation-before-power-amp.5844/#post-131068

 

[maverickronin]

I like the idea of this amp TBH.. far more than the DAC. However, serious concern is present in a DAC/amp combo that is software controlled purely. What happens when a pop-up occurs at full volume or some other unfortunate issue?

IMO this is a pretty serious issue if not handled carefully. Be sure whatever's connected to it isn't set it as your default sound device, especially in Windows.

 

[Tatteredmidnight]

I found the complete omission of volume control very odd at first, especially considering it could have been added to the DAC with no loss in fidelity. Knowing what we know now, I think its most likely a move to reduce the necessary costs of development. Volume control for the tone board via rotary control is not available out of the box for example. If you factor in how aggressive this launch is (DAC, amp, headphone amp, and I believe a preamp), its easy to understand that some compromises had to be made.

I personally don't care for the whole "take it our way or no way at all" mentality as a consumer, but I can understand that Mr. March is attempting to execute a particular vision without sacrificing the quality of the reproduction. I can at least respect that perspective, even if I wouldn't support it financially.