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Marantz SR6014 AVR Review

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amirm

amirm

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My question is about bitstream multichannel signals - do these suffer the same fate? For example, if a Dolby 5.1 multi-tone signal is sent to the AVR with only two channels enabled on it, is the performance similarly compromised as the PCM case?
Well, at the limit, there is no good solution here. You have 6 channels you are trying to stuff into 2. Complex decisions will need to be made as to how to handle overflow.

The case we are dealing with here is simpler: we are only trying to play two channels but the input is configured for 8 channels. Then playing 2 channels should be as simple as passing through those two channels and not try to sum channels that have nothing in them.

It is clear this whole channel mixing/mapping needs attention and analysis beyond the stereo case we have found. Implementations surely vary and some are bound to be better than others. Unfortunately I don't have the time to invest in it.
 
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amirm

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Amir, if the 6014 is still hooked up to the AP, could you please measure the analog input (CD or any should be the same) to find out if it does not get digitized only because you selected speakers to "large" with no subwoofer and/or Audyssey off. I suspect Denon/Marantz might have been smart enough to allow stereo mode to still bypass the ADC unless the subwoofer, or Audyssey, or both are used. Just my guess but it sounds logical to me based on your findings.

If its already packed then may be you can do this verification test on the 3700 or 6700?
I will need to pack this and send it along. But yes, can testwith the other two. With their lower distortion, they make a better test platform anyway.
 
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amirm

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That's why I ask @amirm for a SINAD test with those features enabled (bass management, DSP ... EQ...) when feeding HDMI signal.

I really wonder why that test can't be added.
These AVRs are by far the most tedious products to measure. Not only are there a lot of tests, but a number require messing with the AVR menus to change modes and such. One mistake and I have to redo one or all the tests. By the time I am done with the tests you see, I am super exhausted. Remember, every test requires analysis and documentation on the slides and write up of "how and why."

Now you are asking me to go and mess with variable parameters which require thought as to what to change and how to justify that as the universal scheme for measuring.

Not saying I won't do more but please realize this is already humongous amount of work. It is very painful to add more to it.
 

bigguyca

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Marantz historically has an 70% gaurentee for 5.1. Meaning if it’s 100W for stereo, it’s at least 70W for 5ch; they have no gaurentee for 7/9 channels.


Is the new owner of one of these units required to purchase test gear to verify this 70% guarantee? The guarantee is meaningless, but often repeated by people such as yourself, so it works as a sales tool.
 

Sagnet

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amirm said:
Note: as a courtesy I submitted my measurements to Sound United/Denon-Marnatz engineering and they have verified that they measure the same.
Did they say anything else than "yeah, that looks about right"? Did they express any disappointment? Were they surprised, or was this as expected for them?
 
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amirm

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Did they say anything else than "yeah, that looks about right"? Did they express any disappointment? Were they surprised, or was this as expected for them?
I don't want to disclose our private communications. I hope you understand. They obviously agree the measurements are what the device produces in that regard.
 

MZKM

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Is the new owner of one of these units required to purchase test gear to verify this 70% guarantee? The guarantee is meaningless, but often repeated by people such as yourself, so it works as a sales tool.
You think they are just lying?

They have multi-amp testing capabilities (I think those AP analyzers only do a max of 5ch).

If you look at say the 5ch Emotiva XPA Gen2, it is rated at >83% wattage into 5ch compared to 2ch (250W vs 300W). It’s not some insane guarantee, but entry level models likely do not pass this criteria. Audioholics measured a cheap Yamaha AVR where its 5ch wattage was <30% compared to 2ch.
 

Dj7675

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Is the new owner of one of these units required to purchase test gear to verify this 70% guarantee? The guarantee is meaningless, but often repeated by people such as yourself, so it works as a sales tool.
Several units have been tested at audioholics showing they do meet that spec, often meeting 70% with 7 channels driven instead of 5. So yes, I do believe them.
 

Gedeon

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These AVRs are by far the most tedious products to measure. Not only are there a lot of tests, but a number require messing with the AVR menus to change modes and such. One mistake and I have to redo one or all the tests. By the time I am done with the tests you see, I am super exhausted. Remember, every test requires analysis and documentation on the slides and write up of "how and why."

Now you are asking me to go and mess with variable parameters which require thought as to what to change and how to justify that as the universal scheme for measuring.

Not saying I won't do more but please realize this is already humongous amount of work. It is very painful to add more to it.


I obviously respect a lot your work and to publish each review and getting respect and acknowledgement you need to double-check and follow a straight protocol to reach trustable and comparable measurements among different machines/models.

Maybe just enabling 2.1 and bass redirection with a cut at 40hz, and enabling the minimum DSP digital feature (like an eq) would trigger those DSP which, in some models could add significant noise or distortion.

Anyway, thanks.
 

peng

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The Marantz SR6014 is slightly cheaper than the Denon 4700H and also has less power and performance.

The Marantz is inferior to the Denon:

- Preamp mode has not SINAD benefit (another knock on HDAM)
- Ridiculous slow roll-off filter

+1 the panther should have lost its head over this alone.

I much prefer the design of the Denon over Marantz. The rounded sides and silly porthole with square LCD is clearly visible in the circular opening do not match other components and very few are buying all Marantz.

- Rich

Well, I must admit, when you first told me you weren't impressed the AV8801, or was it even the improved AV8802A, and that the Oppo 105D (you must have the 205 now) as preamp was much better, I thought you were just hearing things..:D Now I believe you were on to something real at the time.
 

peng

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peng

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The AV8801 was a total disaster for me. Hiss from the center and rear channels, two separate trigger failures (requiring two United-Radio service trips), and the power receptacle had to be replaced because the mains would hiss when jiggled. The shine-came off that sneaker for me :p

It is reported that they finally fixed the trigger design in the AV8805 but their engineering team can be glacial.
I still remember the United Radio tech asking me if I was plugging my Prius into the trigger for charging.
The second failure happened on power up and you could smell the cooked electronics.

- Rich

Missed this post earlier.. I have had no such issue with my AV8805, but I bought it at least a year after launch so may be it was fixed by then.
 

peng

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Is the new owner of one of these units required to purchase test gear to verify this 70% guarantee? The guarantee is meaningless, but often repeated by people such as yourself, so it works as a sales tool.

One can argue that over the years there have been enough bench test results from S&V, AH, Audiovision.de etc., that seem to support the 70% claim. But it is true that not every models have been tested/measured, just a few.
 

bigguyca

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Several units have been tested at audioholics showing they do meet that spec, often meeting 70% with 7 channels driven instead of 5. So yes, I do believe them.


Yes, but does the unit you own meet the guaranteed output? How do you know? Audioholics likely gets loaners from Denon and other companies.

The point is that the 70% is often stated by posters as a guarantee, not a specification. What would it take to claim that guarantee, if it is a guarantee? If the regular guarantee is 3-years, is the output guarantee 3-years? What are the exact test conditions for verifying the guarantee? What is the remedy if the product is tested and doesn't meet the guarantee? Is some sort of certified lab required to make the measurements?

It all seems like marketing. No one is likely to ever make a claim under that guarantee.
 
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Vasr

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My question is about bitstream multichannel signals - do these suffer the same fate? For example, if a Dolby 5.1 multi-tone signal is sent to the AVR with only two channels enabled on it, is the performance similarly compromised as the PCM case?

I do not know how one would even go about creating a Dolby encoded multi-channel test signal (single- or multi-tone).

If (and that is a big if) @amirm has the time now or in the future to run a quick test that will answer some of the most asked questions and narrow down the problems, here are some test files that can be used. You can test if encoded multi-channel show this problem or only unencoded PCM files. You can also test if this is a HDMI only problem or also in Optical TOSLINK by playing the attached encoded file through those ports from the PC. They are about 6 seconds long each. Don't know if this is sufficient to test. It can be extended if necessary.

The test tone for L and R is from the RME Audio https://archiv.rme-audio.de/old/english/download/audtest.htm using their 0_16 wav file which as they document is

44,1 kHz, 16 bit, stereo, 1 kHz sine at 0 dBFS (full level), phase right -180∞, dither.

This clean sine is free of distortion, but has a limited signal to noise ratio. Measuring
distortion with a hi-class measurement system will show a THD+N at 0,001%.

Peak level meter show exactly 0 dBFS, in no case over must be shown. The corresponding
RMS level is exactly -3 dB (or dBFS). As this value is normally scaled + 3 dB for better
handling, the RMS meter will often show the same as the peak level meter (0 dBFS).


I created the remaining files using the above and Audacity and ffmpeg for Dolby encoding. The empty channels will remain empty in all of this processing.

The zip file attached contains:
0_16_original_rme_stereo.wav - The 0-16 PCM file from RME in stereo as-is. Playing this will set the base measure for measured L and R performance that will not have any degradation from the problem as it is a 2-channel stereo file. The absolute noise or distortion in this file is not so important as whether changing the speaker setting later creates degradation.

0_16_2chOn_6chSilent.wav - This is the above channels with 6 empty channels added. L and R from above are in channel 1 and channel 2 which will be interpreted correctly by any AVR to send it to L and R. This file can be played to see if the problem as tested with the AP can be reproduced. First test with 7.1 speaker setting and then with 2.0. If there is degradation (absolute values don't matter, just the relative) then we have reproduced what happened with the test signal coming from the AP and the rest of the testing can proceed. If it doesn't then there is a problem in the test set up.

The above files can be played by any audio player - foobar, Windows Media Player, etc. Since it is straight PCM, no processing is done by the players. Just need to make sure that one is using a direct mode (Wasapi, ASIO) to the device or have selected 16bit 44.1 hz for the device in the Windows Sound Device Manager if playing in shared mode so that it is not resampled.

0_16_2chOn_4chSilent.wav - This is the same as above but in 5.1 configuration with 4 channels empty. Test again with 2.0 and 7.1 speaker settings (and optionally 5.1 setting). This test will show whether the degradation also exists with 5.1 input and if it is to the same level as the 7.1. If not, then the issue is proportional to how many channels are being down-mixed. If it is the same level of degradation as 7.1, then it is not how many channels are being down-mixed but if ANY are being down-mixed. If there is no degradation with 5.1, then that would be interesting as it indicates a different handling with the 2-additional channels. If there is no degradation for 5.1 setting but exists for 2.0, then we know it is the down-mixing causing problems.

If the 5.1 PCM file shows degradation for 2.0, the you can try the last file

0_16_2chOn_6chSilent.ac3 - This is the same as above (5.1) but encoded with Dolby Digital (AC3) . To use this you will need a way to have the player pass it through without decoding (bit streaming). Easier to do with video players (vlc, Kodi, MPC, etc) than typical audio players. All the video players have pass-through settings for specific encodings like AC3 and will take care of bit streaming over optical.

If you play this through the HDMI (the AVR should show Dolby Digital on its panel if it is really pass-through) with 2.0 setting, then a degradation would imply it occurs for encoded signals as well. not otherwise. You can also have the player pass-through this file over an optical connection to test if the problem occurs with TOSLINK also or just HDMI.
 

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  • test_tones_1khz_0dbfs_16bit.zip
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audio_tony

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What have you used? NAD wants 1.1 -1.5 volts; Emotiva wants 1.5 volts; Monoprice wants 1.6 volts. Just curious what you use as amplification.

I've just been through a selection of service manuals at random:

Sony TA-N9000ES: 1v / 45kohms
Nikko Alpha 440: 1v / impedance not stated
Harman Kardon HK870: 1v / impedance not stated
Onkyo M282: 1v / 50 kohms
Technics SE-900S: 1v / 33 kohms
Nad 2200: 1v / impedance not stated

There are many, many, more....
 

peng

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I've just been through a selection of service manuals at random:

Sony TA-N9000ES: 1v / 45kohms
Nikko Alpha 440: 1v / impedance not stated
Harman Kardon HK870: 1v / impedance not stated
Onkyo M282: 1v / 50 kohms
Technics SE-900S: 1v / 33 kohms
Nad 2200: 1v / impedance not stated

There are many, many, more....

If those amps are around 100 WPC, 1 V would seem right but for people who want to pair their AVR with 250 to 300 WPC amps, they would want to have 1.5 v or more, in order to have some headroom and the option to go with power amps with gain a little less than 28 to 29 dB.
 

dougi

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So HDAMs don't help to improve any measurement... ouch!!
They do something, in my experience. Measuring an old NA7004 network player, proudly using HDAM,at levels <-1dBFS 2nd harmonic dominates unlike most solid state output stages I imagine. At 0dBFS (ie 2V rms) yes it struggles but most output stages do at full output from what I have measured.
 
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