Marantz SR6014 AVR Review

[RichB]

I read some reviews and found the manual for my amp. I actually have the Sunfire Grand Cinema Architect’s Edition - standard version. The input sensitivity for rated output is 1.34 and the power output is 200 watts continuous, per channel, all five channels driven into eight ohms from 20Hz to 20kHz, with no more than 0.5% T.H.D.

What would that make my preout voltage?

Here is a link to the manual: https://corebrands-resources.s3.ama...iscontinued/Cinema-Seven-Signature-Manual.pdf

1.34 volts should not be a problem. I am driving a Sunfire Cinema Grand (200 WPC) using an Onkyo TX-SR505 and the volume is at about 65 for a movies played at spirited levels.

Next week, I will replace the Onkyo with a Denon AVR-3700H. I don't know if it has a DB scale option but most of these 100% scale seem to be in the mid to high 80's to reach 2 volts (as measured on ASR).

- Rich

 

[peng]

1.34 volts should not be a problem. I am driving a Sunfire Cinema Grand (200 WPC) using an Onkyo TX-SR505 and the volume is at about 65 for a movies played at spirited levels.

Next week, I will replace the Onkyo with a Denon AVR-3700H. I don't know if it has a DB scale option but most of these 100% scale seem to be in the mid to high 80's to reach 2 volts (as measured on ASR).

- Rich

I can't wait to hear back from you how the Denon sound differently, but hopefully better than the Onkyo to your ears. And I am sure you know why I look forward to that.. Use direct mode on both please...... oops, sorry about stating the obvious.

 

[RichB]

I can't wait to hear back from you how the Denon sound differently, but hopefully better than the Onkyo to your ears. And I am sure you know why I look forward to that.. Use direct mode on both please...... oops, sorry about stating the obvious.

I'll spend 5 minutes on that. With the whole family present, there will be little patience for experiments.
The primary purpose for the upgrade is for functionality. Hopefully, there will be a sonic improvement over the Onkyo.

- Rich

 

[peng]

I'll spend 5 minutes on that. With the whole family present, there will be little patience for experiments.
The primary purpose for the upgrade is for functionality. Hopefully, there will be a sonic improvement over the Onkyo.

- Rich

Appreciated even if just 5 minutes. At least then I would know if the difference is very obvious or just subtle.

 

[Thunder240]

The downmix thing is a flaw but the slow roll off filter is a design choice, not a flaw. I posted Marantz response on that choice a couple time, don't know where it is now. To me, it made no audible difference but some audiophiles claimed they could hear the difference between all those filters. I would bet 10 to 1 they would fail to tell in a DBT especially those older than 40 with the normal HF loss from age. It is perhaps something Marantz's design, or more likely the marketing team counting on to achieve their claim of a "warmer" sound signature. Again, it certainly did not work for me, as I had two Marantz before switching back to Denon, and felt no difference. It will definitely make no difference regardless, if you use analog inputs, direct mode and/or use external DACs.

I do I little bit of headphone listening with the HEOS input on pure direct mode using Zone 2 preouts to an external headphone amp (Lake People G103). But 90% + of my listening is Atmos/DD home theater with room correction and an external 5ch amp for LCR and 2 surrounds (back surrounds and heights powered by internal amps). Realistically, I acknowledge I wouldn’t be able to identify the difference in filters in my HT setup. I’d like to think though that I could distinguish the DACs through my LP amp and headphones, and maybe one day I’ll run a double blind level matched experiment using my old Denon 3808ci (uses a TI DAC chip). it’ll be a bit of a project to set it all up, but one day I’ll do it, if only to spare myself future upgraditis. At any rate, the dynamic range issue is the more concerning one to me. Hoping we we get a firmware update!

 

[peng]

I do I little bit of headphone listening with the HEOS input on pure direct mode using Zone 2 preouts to an external headphone amp (Lake People G103). But 90% + of my listening is Atmos/DD home theater with room correction and an external 5ch amp for LCR and 2 surrounds (back surrounds and heights powered by internal amps). Realistically, I acknowledge I wouldn’t be able to identify the difference in filters in my HT setup. I’d like to think though that I could distinguish the DACs through my LP amp and headphones, and maybe one day I’ll run a double blind level matched experiment using my old Denon 3808ci (uses a TI DAC chip). it’ll be a bit of a project to set it all up, but one day I’ll do it, if only to spare myself future upgraditis. At any rate, the dynamic range issue is the more concerning one to me. Hoping we we get a firmware update!

Just curious, did zone2 sound different to you than the main zone using headphone, digital input, using direct mode?

 

[Thunder240]

Just curious, did zone2 sound different to you than the main zone using headphone, digital input, using direct mode?

if you’re asking if I could hear the difference between the zone2 preouts one of the sets of preouts in the main zone, no, I’m just using zone 2 out of convenience.

On the other hand, if you’re asking me whether I could hear the difference between using the built-in headphone out versus my external amp on zone 2, I haven’t tested it. I owned the LP amp already at the time I bought the 7012 and saw no reason not to use it. However, when I first bought the LP amp many years ago, I did test it against the headphone out of my then-receiver, the Denon 3808ci, level matched using the pot on the LP amp with the help of my Mac and a ratshack spl meter placed between the two cups of a pair of headphones. (The amp was again plugged into the zone 2 preouts of the Denon, and switching between the built-in headphone out and the external amp was as simple as moving the headphones back and forth. I don’t remember the mode, but I assume I used pure direct. The source was my Mac, using optical cable I think). After some initial sighted tests, my wife did the switching, and I had no trouble telling the difference between the two using the two sets of headphones I owned at the time (Fostex TH-X00 and Sennheiser Monentum, both of which, incidentally, have fairly low impedance) . Since that test I haven’t looked back, always used the external headphone amp. It’d be worth a repeat at some point with the 7012. Of course, I can’t control for the years that have passed since then!

 

[peng]

if you’re asking if I could hear the difference between the zone2 preouts one of the sets of preouts in the main zone, no, I’m just using zone 2 out of convenience.

On the other hand, if you’re asking me whether I could hear the difference between using the built-in headphone out versus my external amp on zone 2, I haven’t tested it. I owned the LP amp already at the time I bought the 7012 and saw no reason not to use it. However, when I first bought the LP amp many years ago, I did test it against the headphone out of my then-receiver, the Denon 3808ci, level matched using the pot on the LP amp with the help of my Mac and a ratshack spl meter placed between the two cups of a pair of headphones. (The amp was again plugged into the zone 2 preouts of the Denon, and switching between the built-in headphone out and the external amp was as simple as moving the headphones back and forth. I don’t remember the mode, but I assume I used pure direct. The source was my Mac, using optical cable I think). After some initial sighted tests, my wife did the switching, and I had no trouble telling the difference between the two using the two sets of headphones I owned at the time (Fostex TH-X00 and Sennheiser Monentum, both of which, incidentally, have fairly low impedance) . Since that test I haven’t looked back, always used the external headphone amp. It’d be worth a repeat at some point with the 7012. Of course, I can’t control for the years that have passed since then!

Thank you, I asked only because I know zone 2's digital input will go through a different DAC.

 

[Thunder240]

Thank you, I asked only because I know zone 2's digital input will go through a different DAC.

Interesting. Do you know if Zone 2 uses a different topology (eg one DAC for both channels vs one DAC per channel), which might affect how volume control is handled? Also, is the different DAC implementation on the HEOS input in addition to the SPIDF/HDMI connections? Like you, I’m just curious. No audible difference in my limited experimentation (I won’t call it ‘testing’) using the HEOS input.

 

[peng]

Interesting. Do you know if Zone 2 uses a different topology (eg one DAC for both channels vs one DAC per channel), which might affect how volume control is handled? Also, is the different DAC implementation on the HEOS input in addition to the SPIDF/HDMI connections? Like you, I’m just curious. No audible difference in my limited experimentation (I won’t call it ‘testing’) using the HEOS input.

Not a different topology as such. The main zone DAC IC is the AK4458 that is an 8 channel IC. Z2 and Z3's are the PCM5100 that is a 2 channel IC so Z2/3 are limited to playback 2 channel contents.

Main DAC's SINAD spec is 107 dB, SNR is 115 dB vs Z2/3's SINAD 90 dB and SNR 100 dB.

HEOS, that is, network appears to use the main zone DAC, the AK4458 if playback in the main zone.

 

[reg19]

Complete novice signing in here. Please bear with me!

How do these SINAD / THD related tests tie in with this info? Am confused. Also (and this is perhaps an often-asked question), why do audiophiles prefer tube amps to as large an extent as they do if low SINAD / THD = better sound?

I currently own the SR6014 (though it is still in its return period).

Full disclosure: I had no knowledge of this forum & these awesome reviews till yesterday. I intended to buy the Denon 3600H about a month ago. I went to Magnolia (Best Buy) to demo the Denon 3600H vs Denon 4500 vs Marantz SR6014 using the Martin Logan Motion 60 speakers. Repeated this at another Magnolia showroom. In both of these, I liked the sound of the SR6014 better than the Denon 3600H.

In the interim, I also bought a Parasound A21 amp for mains (being fed from the receiver pre-outs). I need guidance on whether I should replace the SR6014 with something in its price range and if so, what exactly. The emphasis is on quality of the pre-out rather than the power amplification. Thanks!

Edit: I also wish to thank the OP for spending many hours for working on such tests. LMK if there is a 'donate' link. I'll leave a small contribution.

 

[A.West]

I have a 6014 with external amp playing mostly 5.2 material. I like it. It doesn't test top tier but at normal volume distortion seems inaudible and at very loud volume your speaker distortion will be much higher than what electronics will deliver.
I wouldn't change my 6014 for a 3600h even after the tests because it would be a hassle to rewire and introduce the risk of getting a dud new unit for what is likely inaudible internet bragging rights. I'm not losing sleep over it.

How well you set up and adjust Audyssey with the app will likely make a bigger impact on end audio quality than the units.)

 

[A.West]

Maybe this explains why Marantz thinks HDAM and other tweaks that lead to slightly higher THD, (of around -85dB to -75dB THD) actually sounds better than minimizing THD.
https://archimago.blogspot.com/2020/06/blind-test-results-part-ii-is-high.html
The data there indicated that more listeners in a blind test preferred music with -75dB THD than -175dB THD. Perhaps a small amount of 2nd and 3rd order harmonics is like salt and pepper on food. Or perhaps it is indistinguishable and was slightly preferred over zero distortion due to chance. But 75dB of THD was clearly not voted as objectionable or inferior to either zero THD or to higher levels of THD (-50dB of THD or more that were generally voted inferior).
The author writes:
"For now, I think that for music listening, if the THD of the reproduction system from source to speaker/headphone is <0.1% (-60dB) across the audible spectrum, the vast majority of listeners would not find this to be objectionable. One might even hear some preferred "euphonic distortion" with low order harmonics around the 0.01-0.1% THD range in my estimation (needs to be tested of course!)."

 

[flyhigh]

A question:
The results of the DAC filter performance of SR6014, can be interpreted like..
When 44.1kHz signal is feeded through HDMI,
will the frequency response of speaker output of SR6014 be -2.5dB at 20 kHz?

 

[peng]

A question:
The results of the DAC filter performance of SR6014, can be interpreted like..
When 44.1kHz signal is feeded through HDMI,
will the frequency response of speaker output of SR6014 be -2.5dB at 20 kHz?

From what can be seen from the graphs, I would say yes.

 

[flyhigh]

From what can be seen from the graphs, I would say yes.

Thank you. I should try to measure the frequency response of my Marantz AVR...

 

[peng]

Thank you. I should try to measure the frequency response of my Marantz AVR...

I don't know if you have downloaded the datasheet for the DAC.
The slow roll-off filter response curve is on page 16. This is for the AK4490 (used in the AV8805)
https://www.akm.com/content/dam/doc.../audio-dac/ak4490eq/ak4490eq-en-datasheet.pdf

The SR6014 and AV7705's AK4458 has similar characteristics but the curves are no shown in the data sheet, though you can see the figures in the table on page 14.
http://www.asahi-kasei.co.jp/amm/en/doc/technical/datasheet/ak4458vn_en.pdf

And below are some FRs of the older Marantz, measured by S&V:

https://www.soundandvision.com/cont...ocessor-amp-mm8077-amplifier-ht-labs-measures

https://www.soundandvision.com/content/marantz-av8802-surround-processor-review-test-bench

It looks like Marantz only started using the slow roll-off filter in 2015/16. My AV8801 does not appear to suffer from this issue.

 

[flyhigh]

I don't know if you have downloaded the datasheet for the DAC.
The slow roll-off filter response curve is on page 16. This is for the AK4490 (used in the AV8805)
https://www.akm.com/content/dam/doc.../audio-dac/ak4490eq/ak4490eq-en-datasheet.pdf

The SR6014 and AV7705's AK4458 has similar characteristics but the curves are no shown in the data sheet, though you can see the figures in the table on page 14.
http://www.asahi-kasei.co.jp/amm/en/doc/technical/datasheet/ak4458vn_en.pdf

And below are some FRs of the older Marantz, measured by S&V:

https://www.soundandvision.com/cont...ocessor-amp-mm8077-amplifier-ht-labs-measures

https://www.soundandvision.com/content/marantz-av8802-surround-processor-review-test-bench

It looks like Marantz only started using the slow roll-off filter in 2015/16. My AV8801 does not appear to suffer from this issue.


View attachment 78766

View attachment 78765

Thank you again for all those references.
I am sad that company like Marantz do not make AVR with flat frequency response and do not let the consumers know it.

 

[peng]

Thank you again for all those references.
I am sad that company like Marantz do not make AVR with flat frequency response and do not let the consumers know it.

You are welcome. If you read their response, they do intend for a flat frequency response, but perhaps to much higher frequency than 22 kHz. May be they believe the audio band extends well pass 22 kHz. It sound silly to me because they can't have it both ways, so why not focus on "flat" up to 22 kHz instead of "flatter" all the way to say 28 kHz while allow the below 22 kHz to be down a few dB?

Their response to my question on the choice of filter:
"It does not apply to the point that there is a bug in the filter characteristics of the DAC. This characteristic was selected by the filter setting according to Marantz's sound policy. Marantz has selected slow roll-off filters for DAC output for many years. If it attenuates before 22.05 kHz, then the audio band will not be flat and the sound quality will be sacrificed."

Before I got their response, I thought they chose slow roll-off to sacrifice FR at 44.1 kHz sampling a little, in favor of better avoidance in the "ringing" issues (for further details see linked article). To me that would have made a little more sense, but that apparently is not their concern. And, note that when they said ...... for many years....., many obviously would be no more than 5 years. As I mentioned and shown by S&V, the AV8801, and presumably the SR7008, 6008, or even the 7009, 6009 didn't show such roll off after 10 kHz.

http://archimago.blogspot.com/2013/06/measurements-digital-filters-and.html

Keep in mind too, analog inputs in direct mode are not affected, obviously.

 

[flyhigh]

You are welcome. If you read their response, they do intend for a flat frequency response, but perhaps to much higher frequency than 22 kHz. May be they believe the audio band extends well pass 22 kHz. It sound silly to me because they can't have it both ways, so why not focus on "flat" up to 22 kHz instead of "flatter" all the way to say 28 kHz while allow the below 22 kHz to be down a few dB?

Their response to my question on the choice of filter:
"It does not apply to the point that there is a bug in the filter characteristics of the DAC. This characteristic was selected by the filter setting according to Marantz's sound policy. Marantz has selected slow roll-off filters for DAC output for many years. If it attenuates before 22.05 kHz, then the audio band will not be flat and the sound quality will be sacrificed."

Before I got their response, I thought they chose slow roll-off to sacrifice FR at 44.1 kHz sampling a little, in favor of better avoidance in the "ringing" issues (for further details see linked article). To me that would have made a little more sense, but that apparently is not their concern. And, note that when they said ...... for many years....., many obviously would be no more than 5 years. As I mentioned and shown by S&V, the AV8801, and presumably the SR7008, 6008, or even the 7009, 6009 didn't show such roll off after 10 kHz.

http://archimago.blogspot.com/2013/06/measurements-digital-filters-and.html

Keep in mind too, analog inputs in direct mode are not affected, obviously.

Surprisingly,
my preliminary measurements showed that the frequency response was similar (around -3~-4dB at 20 khz) between sampling rate of 44.1 khz vs 96 khz (HDMI in, speaker terminal out) in my marantz AVR.

Yes. -3~-4dB at 20khz from the sampling rate of 96 khz.

So It seems to me that "flatter to say 28khz" was not a concern for the Marantz.