Marantz SA-10 Review (SACD Player & DAC)

[Herbert]

Should be putting NSFW before you post these kind of pictures! Hehe

Don´t worry, not easy to achieve.
Beside the gear you need a very precise late or CNC-milling machine
as it is crucial to have no play.

Chris, anatech over at DIYAudio, was a service technician for most everything for years. He knew the cd players from the 80's and 90's inside out. He always used to praise the quality of the Nakamichi players.

There is nothing special about the Nakamichi transports.
Smaller manufacturers like Nakamichi relied on Toshiba / CEC, Sony and Philips as suppliers.
The first generation of Naks had the same Toshiba HOP-32 kind-of lasers that were in almost every good player,
from Toshiba over Kenwood to Denon. Optics were top notch and the heavy Toshiba laser
could be even mechanically aligned in three axis.
I think the RF-Opamp for the diodes was on the OPH-32 itself,
so the weak current from the photodiodes traveled a short distance before being amplified.
An Idea that was much later re-introduced by Sony with the KSS-240
The second gen of my Mac is a Sony KSS-123A, RF-Amp already on the Main PCB, so the current has
to travel about 15-20cm before being amplified. Eye-pattern becomes more noisy.

BTW, I had very bad experiences in real life with Chris, anatech.
I asked him to collaborate to develop a solution for exchanging laser-diodes and he agreed happily.
He would figure a routine, I would produce/mill the means needed.

So I did ship anatech a BU-1 transport from Germany to Canada, including 10 Sharp diodes.
I also sent him money to buy a Sony CDP-102 that has the same BU-1 transport for reference.
This was maybe two years before Manolomos published @ diyaudio his findings how to swap the diodes.
But he did nothing and also never took part in the discussions @diyaudio.
After 2 years of patient waiting I asked him to send me the BU-1 and the player back,
there was still some of my money left to cover the shipment.
He acted like a prima donna and played offended, never sent my belongings back, so...

 

[stvnharr]

BTW, I had very bad experiences in real life with Chris, anatech.
I asked him to collaborate to develop a solution for exchanging laser-diodes and he agreed happily.
He would figure a routine, I would produce/mill the means needed.

I remember the thread and project you mention.
Then it just disappeared, and now I know why.
Pity. Too bad.

 

[Herbert]

Then it just disappeared, and now I know why.

Funnily shortly after that my life changed completely because I had an unplanned success with my first documentary feature.

Keep Moving - Documentary Feature made by Member "Herbert"

Dear friends, I am very happy to announce that my documentary In Bewegung bleiben-Keep Moving is now available as Stream and download in Germany, Austria, Switzerland. Other European countries are to follow and I hope to find a world distributor for 2022. The documentary has English, Spanish...

www.audiosciencereview.com

So I use the momentum to work on a second one. But learning how to replace laser diodes is just postponed, not given up but
it might take until 2025 I'm afraid.
Back to the Marantz: I saw one on display in champagne and did not like the finish at all.
Not because of the design but the colors differed, the tray was a tad darker.
Just from the finish not as classy as in the eighties and nineties...

Vintage audio laser

Site dédié aux lecteurs CD vintage

vintage-audio-laser.com

Accuphase DP-60

vintage-audio-laser.com

Marantz CD15 cdplayer - DutchAudioClassics.nl

DutchAudioClassics.nl - Photos and information of classic Marantz & Philips cd-players

www.dutchaudioclassics.nl

CDX-2020 YAMAHA - HiFi-Do McIntosh/JBL/audio-technica/Jeff Rowland/Accuphase

 

[GXAlan]

I picked up a used one with a 2018 manufacture date, gold color. It measures a bit better than @amirm 's test and I'm not sure if it's because this was made before the actual semiconductor shortage began in 2019 (and got worse during Covid), if there was a production change or if it's just the difference in testing with @pkane 's MultiTone tool and the E1DA Cosmos ADC, or running in ASIO mode with the Marantz drivers.

One issue is that Marantz has a bunch of different settings for dither and noise shaping, with at least one reviewer saying that Marantz has made the defaults what they think sounds the best as opposed to measures the best. This changes the SINAD a little bit. On top of the Filter settings, that means there are 32 different options!

We can see the effect of the dither here:

And you can see the difference between noise shaping here:

SACD testing
I did a comparison with the only SACD test disc I have from Denon which is a -16 dB (edited) 1 kHz test tone. If you measure the digital file itself there is a theoretical max SINAD of -91.5 dB.

The Topping D90 MQA somehow manipulates results so that the THD+N is even better than the theoretical source! The Marantz SA-10 is essentially transparent to the DSD source file. The DC is from the E1DA Cosmos ADC.

The SA-10 does pretty nicely when comparing Multitone 11 tests. Though the Topping D90 MQA has lower noise, you can see the peak spikes are higher with the D90 MQA.

I still don't think you need SA-10 unless you are playing physical media, but it is interesting to see how the measurements differ.

In the end, the best I got was 108.7 dB SINAD. Almost to the blue level but not quite for SINAD. Doesn't matter if it's running 44.1 or higher.

 

[GXAlan]

Running the SA-10 in DSD gets it into 109 dB, finally getting it into the blue territory...

It's a lot of effort if you want to physically playback SACDs but no different than vinyl playback. The SACD 30n and DCD-A110 are probably a better overall choice for most people looking for a reliable SACD player, although used prices for the SA-10 can be very attractive compared to new prices for the SACD 30n/DCD-A110.

It is nice that the SA-10 plays DSD128 files that are on DVD-Rs which is not available on the lower end products.

All in all, there's no real change from Amir's conclusion. Ignoring cost, it's respectable for a physical SACD player whose only competitor is the Oppo UBP-205. Factoring in cost, you can find more transparent DACs for a fraction of the cost. The problem is with physical SACDs. You'll have to either rip the SACD to file and then a PC/Mac, or jerry-rig a setup with a Blu-ray player that sends DSD via HDMI and then use an HDMI extractor to send DSD to an external DAC.

The nicest thing about the SA-10 is how quiet the drive is. That's defintely where most of the money went.

 

[Scytales]

SACD testing
I did a comparison with the only SACD test disc I have from Denon which is a -20 dB 1 kHz test tone. If you measure the digital file itself there is a theoretical max SINAD of -91.5 dB.

I think the test disc is Denon Audio Check SACD (COQG-28). In this case, for the sake of precision, the sinus test signals are recorded at -16 dB SA-CD (exactly the same level as the -16 dBFS test signals in 16 bits PCM on the CD layer of the same disc).

 

[GXAlan]

I think the test disc is Denon Audio Check SACD (COQG-28). In this case, for the sake of precision, the sinus test signals are recorded at -16 dB SA-CD (exactly the same level as the -16 dBFS test signals in 16 bits PCM on the CD layer of the same disc).

Thanks! Somehow I mis-remembered it as -20 dB. I took out the liner notes and you are right! This explains the 91.5 dB source file.

 

[stvnharr]

Running the SA-10 in DSD gets it into 109 dB, finally getting it into the blue territory...

It's a lot of effort if you want to physically playback SACDs but no different than vinyl playback. The SACD 30n and DCD-A110 are probably a better overall choice for most people looking for a reliable SACD player, although used prices for the SA-10 can be very attractive compared to new prices for the SACD 30n/DCD-A110.

It is nice that the SA-10 plays DSD128 files that are on DVD-Rs which is not available on the lower end products.

All in all, there's no real change from Amir's conclusion. Ignoring cost, it's respectable for a physical SACD player whose only competitor is the Oppo UBP-205. Factoring in cost, you can find more transparent DACs for a fraction of the cost. The problem is with physical SACDs. You'll have to either rip the SACD to file and then a PC/Mac, or jerry-rig a setup with a Blu-ray player that sends DSD via HDMI and then use an HDMI extractor to send DSD to an external DAC.

The nicest thing about the SA-10 is how quiet the drive is. That's defintely where most of the money went

Nice review.
FWIW, I do not have an SA-10. I have the SA KI-Ruby.
Just some things to add...............
Do you have a Service Manual for your SA-10? It could be quite helpful. They are available online for not much. The Service Manual will show you have to access the Service Mode, and in Service Mode there is a function called Aging Mode. This will give the actual time on each laser. As with all sacd players, the sacd laser is the weak part. There is no mention anywhere of expected user life for the sacd laser, but I find it nice that I can keep track of it. I check it monthly and write it down. You might find it nice to know this about your player, since you bought it used.
Given that your player is now 4-5 years old, it might be a good idea to just buy a replacement laser from Marantz. They are still in production as the sell them as OEM to some of the really high end companies. My Ruby is still in warranty but I will soon buy a replacement laser, just to have if ever needed.

You mention in the quoted post above that the SA-10 can play DVD-R's. I have never seen any Marantz player that can play anything DVD. The USB input on the SA-10 does accept DSD128 files, but that is not the same thing. The newer players will accept DSD256 on the USB input.

I also do not understand what you mean about a problem with physical sacds. The player is made to play physical sacds. You put them in and press Play. It is also not hard to rip the DSD layer(s) off the physical sacd with one of the blu ray players, or Oppo 105 players. The Mikey Fresh thread on Hifi heaven is great. I am in the slow process of ripping my 1500 sacds. I use JRiver and the USB dac in the Ruby. It all could not be any easier.

 

[Snoopy]

Nice review.
FWIW, I do not have an SA-10. I have the SA KI-Ruby.
Just some things to add...............
Do you have a Service Manual for your SA-10? It could be quite helpful. They are available online for not much. The Service Manual will show you have to access the Service Mode, and in Service Mode there is a function called Aging Mode. This will give the actual time on each laser. As with all sacd players, the sacd laser is the weak part. There is no mention anywhere of expected user life for the sacd laser, but I find it nice that I can keep track of it. I check it monthly and write it down. You might find it nice to know this about your player, since you bought it used.
Given that your player is now 4-5 years old, it might be a good idea to just buy a replacement laser from Marantz. They are still in production as the sell them as OEM to some of the really high end companies. My Ruby is still in warranty but I will soon buy a replacement laser, just to have if ever needed.

You mention in the quoted post above that the SA-10 can play DVD-R's. I have never seen any Marantz player that can play anything DVD. The USB input on the SA-10 does accept DSD128 files, but that is not the same thing. The newer players will accept DSD256 on the USB input.

I also do not understand what you mean about a problem with physical sacds. The player is made to play physical sacds. You put them in and press Play. It is also not hard to rip the DSD layer(s) off the physical sacd with one of the blu ray players, or Oppo 105 players. The Mikey Fresh thread on Hifi heaven is great. I am in the slow process of ripping my 1500 sacds. I use JRiver and the USB dac in the Ruby. It all could not be any easier.

Jriver media center converts SACD Isos internally to pcm before outputting dsf files. The same applies when playing Isos.

 

[stvnharr]

Jriver media center converts SACD Isos internally to pcm before outputting dsf files. The same applies when playing Isos.

When I play a DSD64 file the Ruby dac reads DSD 2.8M. When I play a DSD256 file, the dac reads DSD 11.2M.
Can you post a reference in the JRiver info wiki that says what you wrote? I use Media Center 29.

 

[GXAlan]

The Service Manual will show you have to access the Service Mode, and in Service Mode there is a function called Aging Mode.

That's great insight. I will definitely grab the service manual.

You mention in the quoted post above that the SA-10 can play DVD-R's. I have never seen any Marantz player that can play anything DVD. The USB input on the SA-10 does accept DSD128 files, but that is not the same thing. The newer players will accept DSD256 on the USB input.

https://manuals.marantz.com/SA10/NA/EN/WBSPSYwfliiqar.php

It's the one feature the Marantz reserves for the SA-10 and hasn't put in any other disc player of theirs.

I also do not understand what you mean about a problem with physical sacds. The player is made to play physical sacds. You put them in and press Play. It is also not hard to rip the DSD layer(s) off the physical sacd with one of the blu ray players, or Oppo 105 players. The Mikey Fresh thread on Hifi heaven is great. I am in the slow process of ripping my 1500 sacds. I use JRiver and the USB dac in the Ruby. It all could not be any easier.

I was just referencing Amir's original review/comments. If you don't play physical discs, you probably shouldn't get the SA-10.

 

[stvnharr]

Alan,
Here is a link for the Service Manual: https://www.service-manual.net/?download=66134-marantz-sa-10-sa-10s1-service-manual
I got my Ruby SM from them.

Interesting fact about the SA-10 and DVD-R. Obviously I did not know that.

Yes, the only reason to get any of the new Marantz sacd players is to play sacd's. Everything else can be done for way less money.
I really like my Ruby player. It has been flawless for 2 1/2 years and I have used it a lot, like 3-4 hours every day. Everything sounds really good.


Steve

 

[stvnharr]

When I play a DSD64 file the Ruby dac reads DSD 2.8M. When I play a DSD256 file, the dac reads DSD 11.2M.
Can you post a reference in the JRiver info wiki that says what you wrote? I use Media Center 29.

I will reply to my own post as I found the JRiver DSD wiki entry.

 

[Snoopy]

I will reply to my own post as I found the JRiver DSD wiki entry.

I converted about 640gb of SACD Iso files to DSF with Jriver before I came across posts on reddit and stevehoffmann and Roon forum that the conversation wouldn't be "perfect" since the DSF files don't get just extracted from the iso but converted to PCM first and back to DSF.

this might result in fine file but its not really perfect. I compared files I created with Jriver and SACD_ectract , iso2DSD and the file size was not exactly the same. so I went back and did everything all over again with iso2DSD and SACD extract.
It was a bit of a pain in the ass to get it to work on MacOS but it was ultimately worth it.

you can convert whatever file you want to DSD128 and the SACD player will probably read "DSD128" but there are plenty of SACDs (many from HK) that are sourced from normal Redbook files.



Jriver wiki
By default, DSD sources will be converted to PCM for playback and handled by the Media Center audio engine like any other file type. The DSD to PCM conversion process converts from 1-bit DSD to 64-bit PCM at 1/8th of the DSD sample rate. The total amount of data from this conversion grows by 8x, so the process is effectively lossless / perfect. Once you have PCM, it will be 64bit @ 352.8 kHz for DSD, and 64bit @ 705.6 kHz for 2×DSD.

 

[LTig]

Jriver wiki
By default, DSD sources will be converted to PCM for playback and handled by the Media Center audio engine like any other file type. The DSD to PCM conversion process converts from 1-bit DSD to 64-bit PCM at 1/8th of the DSD sample rate. The total amount of data from this conversion grows by 8x, so the process is effectively lossless / perfect. Once you have PCM, it will be 64bit @ 352.8 kHz for DSD, and 64bit @ 705.6 kHz for 2×DSD.

64 Bits?

 

[GXAlan]

64 Bits?

There is no ADC that has better than 24 bits of actual information, but my understanding is that DSD as a encoding method theoretically is “120 dB” in the audible range but as you go to lower frequencies, your dynamic range is increased. 32-bit *integer* hits 194 dB SNR, whereas it does look like DSD hits 200 dB in certain frequencies.

None of this is audible, but from the standpoint of a “perfect” translation it seems to be a good way to do things while CPU power is free.

The Well-Tempered Computer

 

[LTig]

There is no ADC that has better than 24 bits of actual information, but my understanding is that DSD as a encoding method theoretically is “120 dB” in the audible range but as you go to lower frequencies, your dynamic range is increased. 32-bit *integer* hits 194 dB SNR, whereas it does look like DSD hits 200 dB in certain frequencies.

None of this is audible, but from the standpoint of a “perfect” translation it seems to be a good way to do things while CPU power is free.

You just create data no DAC can decode. Even the best DACs barely reach 21 or 22 bit resolution. From an engineers view (dumping 40 of 64 bits at the DAC) this is stupid senseless overkill.

 

[pkane]

You just create data no DAC can decode. Even the best DACs barely reach 21 or 22 bit resolution. From an engineers view (dumping 40 of 64 bits at the DAC) this is stupid senseless overkill.

I can see 256 bits per sample files becoming a necessity in the near future for anyone capable of hearing down to about -1500 dB

 

[stvnharr]

SACD

I converted about 640gb of SACD Iso files to DSF with Jriver before I came across posts on reddit and stevehoffmann and Roon forum that the conversation wouldn't be "perfect" since the DSF files don't get just extracted from the iso but converted to PCM first and back to DSF.

this might result in fine file but its not really perfect. I compared files I created with Jriver and SACD_ectract , iso2DSD and the file size was not exactly the same. so I went back and did everything all over again with iso2DSD and SACD extract.
It was a bit of a pain in the ass to get it to work on MacOS but it was ultimately worth it.

you can convert whatever file you want to DSD128 and the SACD player will probably read "DSD128" but there are plenty of SACDs (many from HK) that are sourced from normal Redbook files.



Jriver wiki
By default, DSD sources will be converted to PCM for playback and handled by the Media Center audio engine like any other file type. The DSD to PCM conversion process converts from 1-bit DSD to 64-bit PCM at 1/8th of the DSD sample rate. The total amount of data from this conversion grows by 8x, so the process is effectively lossless / perfect. Once you have PCM, it will be 64bit @ 352.8 kHz for DSD, and 64bit @ 705.6 kHz for 2×DSD.

Snoopy,
In my version of MC, 29, I select DSD bitstreaming for audio output. From what I have read in various places this should ensure that DSD file input does not get converted on it's way to audio output.
But it is a bit confusing as the wiki quoted above was written much earlier than when the DSD bitstreaming option came out.

All of my ripping of sacd has been with the latest version of SACD EXTRACT, as shown in the HiFi Haven thread.
I have used the JRiver ripper only for rbcds.

 

[LTig]

I can see 256 bits per sample files becoming a necessity in the near future for anyone capable of hearing down to about -1500 dB

It's not even covered by @RayDunzl's Shoutometer de Luxe.

64 Bit resolution though would amount to a meager -384 dB with a Shoutometer distance of just ~2000 light years. Of course, waiting for the sound to arrive at your ear at the speed of sound would take ~2 billion years - in theory. In practice you'd wait forever because sound cannot travel through a vacuum ...