• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required as is 20 years of participation in forums (not all true). There are daily reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

Marantz SA-10 Review (SACD Player & DAC)

Rate this product:

  • 1. Poor (headless panther)

    Votes: 61 21.9%
  • 2. Not terrible (postman panther)

    Votes: 137 49.3%
  • 3. Fine (happy panther)

    Votes: 71 25.5%
  • 4. Great (golfing panther)

    Votes: 9 3.2%

  • Total voters
    278

don'ttrustauthority

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 10, 2021
Messages
517
Likes
274
It is if you convinced them they wanted it by lying to them.
That's called capitalism. Buying on need and value with no room for profit (profit is only perceived value, not actual value) then you have communism. Without false value, capitalism cannot exist unless you take from the worker.
 

don'ttrustauthority

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 10, 2021
Messages
517
Likes
274
Our growth rate implies otherwise.

The key is to get them before the sunk costs become too hard to move beyond.
Seems like an odd place to go ... stereo equipment is usually bought like jewelry. Not the actual value of the metal, but the fake value of the ideas, looks, etc.

If you want people to buy better value for their dollar, frankly, I wasted more money buying a new car and paying like $2500 for the most piece of garbage system with sinad so low you'd puke.

Test those systems and see how much money you all waste of garbage in your car, and tell me how careful a shopper you are LOL.
 

don'ttrustauthority

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 10, 2021
Messages
517
Likes
274
It tells you how much noise and distortion the DAC is producing.

That is only one aspect of how a DAC sounds. I don't think anyone here claims that SINAD is the only thing that matters. That's why Amir measures a bunch of other things as well.
The question I asked that started all this is simple. If sinad is 112 db, and it is beyond audibility as Amir said in the article, why is it's performance not equal to sinad of 111111111111111112 db which is also beyond audibility?

My understanding of SINAD is that it combines two different measurements. Amir says sinad of 112 db is beyond audibility. If true, then it doesn't matter if the SINAD is made up of two different measurements, as the combined effect is inaudible. Therefore all devices with a sinad BEYOND audibility (as the article states) should be equally transparent and sound identical. If they don't sound identical, SINAD is not beyond audibility.

Is my understanding incorrect?
 
Last edited:

aj625

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 31, 2021
Messages
303
Likes
201
Seems like an odd place to go ... stereo equipment is usually bought like jewelry. Not the actual value of the metal, but the fake value of the ideas, looks, etc.

If you want people to buy better value for their dollar, frankly, I wasted more money buying a new car and paying like $2500 for the most piece of garbage system with sinad so low you'd puke.

Test those systems and see how much money you all waste of garbage in your car, and tell me how careful a shopper you are LOL.ost people buy audio gear like
Most people buy audio gear as jewellery ? Are you serious ? Then what is the need of countless review websites, magazines and tech meets, seminars , awards etc etc ? Since when they started giving weightage to looks in reviews and tests ?
 

Mart68

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 22, 2021
Messages
991
Likes
1,711
Location
England
Most people buy audio gear as jewellery ? Are you serious ? Then what is the need of countless review websites, magazines and tech meets, seminars , awards etc etc ? Since when they started giving weightage to looks in reviews and tests ?
If something is expensive and you like how it looks that's two reasons why you might perceive it to sound better, even if it doesn't.
Very few reviewers do blind listening tests.

When did you last see a magazine review where they said 'It looks pretty but it's way overpriced and doesn't perform any better than the XXX at a tenth of the cost.'?

Yet this is undoubtable true of many products they review.
 

BDWoody

Chief Cat Herder
Moderator
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 9, 2019
Messages
5,367
Likes
15,461
Location
Mid-Atlantic, USA. (Maryland)
Seems like an odd place to go ... stereo equipment is usually bought like jewelry. Not the actual value of the metal, but the fake value of the ideas, looks, etc.

It may be, but it seems most conflate higher price with higher sound quality.

Most who buy jewelery aren't confused about the utility of their purchase.

Once someone has spent tens of thousands on cables and lifters, it is going to be hard to get them down off the ledge.

Test those systems and see how much money you all waste of garbage in your car, and tell me how careful a shopper you are LOL.

I'm not sure how that relates to giving people tools and data so they can make more informed choices.
 

rwortman

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 29, 2019
Messages
460
Likes
353
Exactly, that's what I say. Dac with same sinad can't sound same because sinad is dependent on many factors. So claims like all dacs sound san

Exactly. Then there should all the more be a justification of buying cheaper higher sinad dac than lesser sinad expensive boutique dac, if at all there is a limit of audibility of sinad. Isn't it ? Why one should spend many $ks on a dac, only for looks, show off, weight , brand value ? :p
Because they want to?
 

SuicideSquid

Active Member
Joined
Jan 20, 2022
Messages
124
Likes
189
The question I asked that started all this is simple. If sinad is 112 db, and it is beyond audibility as Amir said in the article, why is it's performance not equal to sinad of 111111111111111112 db which is also beyond audibility?

My understanding of SINAD is that it combines two different measurements. Amir says sinad of 112 db is beyond audibility. If true, then it doesn't matter if the SINAD is made up of two different measurements, as the combined effect is inaudible. Therefore all devices with a sinad BEYOND audibility (as the article states) should be equally transparent and sound identical. If they don't sound identical, SINAD is not beyond audibility.

Is my understanding incorrect?

In both cases, at normal listening levels, you will not be able to hear noise or distortion from either DAC in your scenario. That *doesn't mean* they'll sound identical. Frequency response, jitter, channel separation, and other factors will still affect how the DAC sounds.

Many newer DACs score basically perfect across the board in all of these categories - if you've got two DACs that are both posting sub-110dB SINAD, perfect channel separation, linear frequency response between 20Hz and 20kHz, and jitter below -120dB, then it's a safe bet those two DACs will sound identical. But if you get a DAC with very low SINAD but poor frequency linearity and high levels of jitter, you may be able to hear a difference between that DAC, and one with very low SINAD, very low jitter, and flat frequency response.
 

don'ttrustauthority

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 10, 2021
Messages
517
Likes
274
In both cases, at normal listening levels, you will not be able to hear noise or distortion from either DAC in your scenario. That *doesn't mean* they'll sound identical. Frequency response, jitter, channel separation, and other factors will still affect how the DAC sounds.

Many newer DACs score basically perfect across the board in all of these categories - if you've got two DACs that are both posting sub-110dB SINAD, perfect channel separation, linear frequency response between 20Hz and 20kHz, and jitter below -120dB, then it's a safe bet those two DACs will sound identical. But if you get a DAC with very low SINAD but poor frequency linearity and high levels of jitter, you may be able to hear a difference between that DAC, and one with very low SINAD, very low jitter, and flat frequency response.
If SINAD is inaudible, is it not true, that the levels of jitter linearity etc MUST BE so low that the dacs sound identical?

You seem to be saying you believe it to be possible that a dac with inaudible sinad can have audible jitter, uneven frequency repsonse, etc.

How is this possible?

In other words, inaudible sinad does or does not mean identical sound from a dac at the same voltage output?
 

aj625

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 31, 2021
Messages
303
Likes
201
If SINAD is inaudible, is it not true, that the levels of jitter linearity etc MUST BE so low that the dacs sound identical?

You seem to be saying you believe it to be possible that a dac with inaudible sinad can have audible jitter, uneven frequency repsonse, etc.

How is this possible?

In other words, inaudible sinad does or does not mean identical sound from a dac at the same voltage output?
there is no tested fact about inaudibility of differences in sound quality after a certain limit. Same sinad can never guarantee same sound quality. This indicates that human brain is much more sensitive than claimed by people who find that every dac and every amp sound same. :p
 
Last edited:

SuicideSquid

Active Member
Joined
Jan 20, 2022
Messages
124
Likes
189
If SINAD is inaudible, is it not true, that the levels of jitter linearity etc MUST BE so low that the dacs sound identical?

You seem to be saying you believe it to be possible that a dac with inaudible sinad can have audible jitter, uneven frequency repsonse, etc.

How is this possible?

In other words, inaudible sinad does or does not mean identical sound from a dac at the same voltage output?
SINAD is just a measure of noise+distortion. You can have high SINAD and still have poor linearity, for example, because linearity is not a measure of noise or of distortion.
 
Last edited:

SuicideSquid

Active Member
Joined
Jan 20, 2022
Messages
124
Likes
189
there is no tested fact about inaudibility of differences in sound quality after a certain limit. Same sinad can never guarantee same sound quality. This indicates that human brain is much more sensitive than claimed by people who find that every dac and every amp sound same. :p
By "sensitive" I think you mean "prone to self-deception."
 

aj625

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 31, 2021
Messages
303
Likes
201
SINAD is just a measure of noise+distortion. You can have extremely low SINAD and still have poor linearity, for example, because linearity is not a measure of noise or of distortion.
I thought you meant high sinad here instead of low. Can you post some reference out of asr measurements where despite poor linearity sinad is high ?
 

SuicideSquid

Active Member
Joined
Jan 20, 2022
Messages
124
Likes
189
I thought you meant high sinad here instead of low. Can you post some reference out of asr measurements where despite poor linearity sinad is high ?
That was a typo, I meant high SINAD. I have edited my post to correct.

I'm not going to go scrubbing through the database to find an example for this hypothetical, and in general you find high SINAD on properly-designed hardware - which, because it's well-designed, also has good linearity, but these two things are not necessarily linked. The question is not "do DACs that typically have high SINAD also typically have good linearity", the question is "are there other measurements that affect how a DAC sounds, beyond SINAD", and the answer to that question is obviously "yes", or the only thing Amir would ever measure is noise and distortion.

If you put two DACs against each other, level-matched, that post inaudible noise, inaudible distortion, inaudible jitter, dead flat linearity, and low crosstalk, they're going to sound the same. If you put such a DAC up against one with with low noise and distortion, but poor linearity and poor crosstalk, they may sound different.
 

aj625

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 31, 2021
Messages
303
Likes
201
That was a typo, I meant high SINAD. I have edited my post to correct.

I'm not going to go scrubbing through the database to find an example for this hypothetical, and in general you find high SINAD on properly-designed hardware - which, because it's well-designed, also has good linearity, but these two things are not necessarily linked. The question is not "do DACs that typically have high SINAD also typically have good linearity", the question is "are there other measurements that affect how a DAC sounds, beyond SINAD", and the answer to that question is obviously "yes", or the only thing Amir would ever measure is noise and distortion.

If you put two DACs against each other, level-matched, that post inaudible noise, inaudible distortion, inaudible jitter, dead flat linearity, and low crosstalk, they're going to sound the same. If you put such a DAC up against one with with low noise and distortion, but poor linearity and poor crosstalk, they may sound different.
Are these your own ideas or you can provide some link for blind listening tests ? Problem is that there is nothing absolute in this world.
 

aj625

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 31, 2021
Messages
303
Likes
201
That was a typo, I meant high SINAD. I have edited my post to correct.

I'm not going to go scrubbing through the database to find an example for this hypothetical, and in general you find high SINAD on properly-designed hardware - which, because it's well-designed, also has good linearity, but these two things are not necessarily linked. The question is not "do DACs that typically have high SINAD also typically have good linearity", the question is "are there other measurements that affect how a DAC sounds, beyond SINAD", and the answer to that question is obviously "yes", or the only thing Amir would ever measure is noise and distortion.

If you put two DACs against each other, level-matched, that post inaudible noise, inaudible distortion, inaudible jitter, dead flat linearity, and low crosstalk, they're going to sound the same. If you put such a DAC up against one with with low noise and distortion, but poor linearity and poor crosstalk, they may sound different.
Btw poor linearity will also affect sinad because of low level inaccuracies. Sinad is a good measure of almost every tests except only few like crosstalk. If sinad is good you can expect that dac will perform well in almost all tests. It's not like sinad is totl but linearity is poor.
 

SuicideSquid

Active Member
Joined
Jan 20, 2022
Messages
124
Likes
189
Are these your own ideas or you can provide some link for blind listening tests ? Problem is that there is nothing absolute in this world.

I'm holding the position that if two things measure the same, they'll sound the same, and if they measure differently, they may sound different. If you're disagreeing with that statement, the burden of proof is with you, not with me, to provide evidence to suggest otherwise.

There are reasons you can have poor linearity without affecting SINAD - a poorly-designed filter that begins to roll off high frequencies below 20kHz, for example, will not affect SINAD, but may affect how a device sounds.
 

don'ttrustauthority

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 10, 2021
Messages
517
Likes
274
There are reasons you can have poor linearity without affecting SINAD - a poorly-designed filter that begins to roll off high frequencies below 20kHz, for example, will not affect SINAD, but may affect how a device sounds.
I said if sinad is below audibility, you can't have audible differences between dacs.

You seem to think that is not true:

quote: In both cases, at normal listening levels, you will not be able to hear noise or distortion from either DAC in your scenario. That *doesn't mean* they'll sound identical. Frequency response, jitter, channel separation, and other factors will still affect how the DAC sounds.

You seem to think you can have linearity issues and still have inaudible sinad.

But is not lack of linearity going to reflected in sinad? Is not rolled off high frequencies distorting the signal? does sinad not measure this distortion?
 

don'ttrustauthority

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 10, 2021
Messages
517
Likes
274
Most who buy jewelery aren't confused about the utility of their purchase.
What's your evidence? I think most people think a Rolex is an investment. (Some are, most are not).

I think most people buying wedding rings think they go up in value and will be helpful in retirement.

But the point is, that where is the utility in sinad beyond audibility?

Amir says since sinad is only -112db, even though it's inaudible, it's not good enough.

He's said this before. I always am baffled by this.

If the music reproduction is inaudible what is the benefit so far as design outcome to make sinad lower?
 

don'ttrustauthority

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 10, 2021
Messages
517
Likes
274
Most people buy audio gear as jewellery ? Are you serious ? Then what is the need of countless review websites, magazines and tech meets, seminars , awards etc etc ? Since when they started giving weightage to looks in reviews and tests ?
Dude, comic book artists have awards.
 
Top Bottom