Marantz SA-10 Review (SACD Player & DAC)

[Count Dacula]

The reason someone would select a product like this is purely aesthetics. Sure the face is a pretty one, with the green light, but specifically and importantly, it matches the owner's other Marantz components.

I would guess a large portion of people who own this, also own other Marantz gear. We all knew that in the back of our heads, so I'll just say it. Not a bad plan aesthetically, but isn't it really a function of Marantz being easily identified by normies as premium+? So the function isn't premium SQ, but the look of premium SQ and financial expense..

Driving that home, so I can kick the door open into a different kind of analysis, the psych kind. So many cognitive biases coming into play, I want to pick out one of the more interesting ones.

List of cognitive biases - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

So how about...

Association fallacy - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

An association fallacy is an informal inductive fallacy of the hasty-generalization or red-herring type and which asserts, by irrelevant association and often by appeal to emotion, that qualities of one thing are inherently qualities of another.

So if their (old) Marantz receiver or tubey amp is known "good" (subjectively and perceptually) then their CDP/DAC must be good too!

We've all fallen into this trap, but here it's visible from far away. Giving up on the notion of "matching" brand of components is essential, and is literally the hallmark of a true audiophile. Also need to forsake the old for the new, and not let irrational emotions get in the way. A lot of people don't ever adapt and get stuck in one mode for a long time, even their whole lives. So now we have ASR currently giving a much-needed jolt to these situations.

It's a fine distinction from the dozen other cognitive biases in-play, but it makes for some insight.

 

[GXAlan]

The reason someone would select a product like this is purely aesthetics. Sure the face is a pretty one, with the green light, but specifically and importantly, it matches the owner's other Marantz components.

+1. I have the champagne set of SA-10 and PM-10 and aesthetics are a big part of the appeal, for sure.

I would add the remote feels wonderful in hand.

isn't it really a function of Marantz being easily identified by normies as premium+?

Maybe. My Marantz gear is in my office, enjoyed only by me but in the family room where guests may also enjoy movies, the setup is pretty ugly.

I have measured my SA-10 to be more transparent to SACD discs than my Topping D90.

Two reasonable DACs with a large PK Metric when tested with real music...

I've previously shown that my SA-11s2 and Panasonic UB9000 sound similarly and measure similarly with DeltaWave. In this post, I'm sharing some preliminary data showing a) a measurable PK Metric difference between two reasonable DACs with real music b) the DAC with a ~10 dB worse 1 kHz SINAD...

www.audiosciencereview.com

But it’s the ergonomics of the remote, track selection, and ability to play both physical SACDs and physical DVD-R mixes without issues.

So if their (old) Marantz receiver or tubey amp is known "good" (subjectively and perceptually) then their CDP/DAC must be good too!

100%. Although back in the 70’s it was already recognized that mixing and matching brands was important since brands are going to be good at specific things as opposed to everything.

We've all fallen into this trap, but here it's visible from far away. Giving up on the notion of "matching" brand of components is essential, and is literally the hallmark of a true audiophile.

A true audiophile could get a Benchmark or Topping stack and there is nothing wrong with that.

I think there is a need to recognize the value of science and measurement and a smart audiophile is one who recognizes the contribution of cognitive bias.

Also need to forsake the old for the new, and not let irrational emotions get in the way.

Do you enjoy mainstream food or Soylent when given the choice of two meals with the same nutritional value?

complete meal - Soylent

If you're looking for a ready-to-drink shake that provides a nutritious and complete meal, extra protein or an energy boost, Soylent has the perfect drink for you.

soylent.com

Emotions aren’t supposed to be rational. Ignoring your emotions is what’s irrational.

 

[Count Dacula]

No, the difference is like eating the exact same Soylent meal in private or a fancy restaurant.

 

[GXAlan]

No, the difference is like eating the exact same Soylent meal in private or a fancy restaurant.

Okay… so which scenario do you prefer?

 

[Galliardist]

The reason someone would select a product like this is purely aesthetics. Sure the face is a pretty one, with the green light, but specifically and importantly, it matches the owner's other Marantz components.

I would guess a large portion of people who own this, also own other Marantz gear. We all knew that in the back of our heads, so I'll just say it. Not a bad plan aesthetically, but isn't it really a function of Marantz being easily identified by normies as premium+? So the function isn't premium SQ, but the look of premium SQ and financial expense..

Driving that home, so I can kick the door open into a different kind of analysis, the psych kind. So many cognitive biases coming into play, I want to pick out one of the more interesting ones.

List of cognitive biases - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

So how about...

Association fallacy - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

So if their (old) Marantz receiver or tubey amp is known "good" (subjectively and perceptually) then their CDP/DAC must be good too!

We've all fallen into this trap, but here it's visible from far away. Giving up on the notion of "matching" brand of components is essential, and is literally the hallmark of a true audiophile. Also need to forsake the old for the new, and not let irrational emotions get in the way. A lot of people don't ever adapt and get stuck in one mode for a long time, even their whole lives. So now we have ASR currently giving a much-needed jolt to these situations.

It's a fine distinction from the dozen other cognitive biases in-play, but it makes for some insight.

OK, you got me. I just ran into the other room to look for the green light that I'd never seen before. The SA-10 doesn't have a green light.

I don't fit any of the stuff you just wrote about owners of the SA-10. I bought based on things like ergonomics: yes, looks to an extent: and great measurements for a disc player.
Yes, measurements. This product would probably have been recommended if Amir hadn't worried about the price and, and maybe because of previous reaction over the TuneTots review. It's transparent. Fact.

I've owned one Marantz component previously, a cheap tuner with very different looks. I have never had one of their old receivers, never owned a tube amp (though I've heard plenty enough to know that tubey is not a thing, anyway). In fact the SA-10 has what was unique and modern software to match non-standard electronics when it was launched. The matching PM-10 has bridged Hypex modules and custom filters. It was launched in 2016, around the same time as the first NAD amps with Hypex modules. Forsake the old for the new, really?

And I don't see why I have to have different brands of equipment, if two products from the same brand measure sufficiently well, look good, and match electrically. I have the above mentioneed PM-10 as well. It also measures excellently, and I was relieved when I blind tested against my previous amp and it wasn't worse.

These things are expensive, but they do actually work and work well. Maybe associating them with old receivers and tube products is your own fallacy.

Actually, the mark of the "true audiophile" is getting facts wrong, believing lots of nonsense and worrying about the wrong things. Does the cap fit?

 

[GXAlan]

The matching PM-10 has bridged Hypex modules and custom filters. It was launched in 2016, around the same time as the first NAD amps with Hypex modules. Forsake the old for the new, really?
…
It also measures excellently,

Hypex NCx500 Class D Amplifier Review

Marantz PM-10 Comparison (bridged NC500OEM with Marantz buffer+preamp) Source = -111 dB SINAD Panasonic UB9000 Instrument = E1DA Cosmos ADC; Grade A Edit: I just left this in the 43V input mode. If I matched the input sensitivity of the E1DA to the actual output, you get higher SINAD numbers...

audiosciencereview.com

5W SINAD of 100 dB full integrated amp (not just power amp) when fed by a UB9000 as a test tone generator (which only has a SINAD of 111 dB)

… in 2016.
… made in Japan
… with reliable warranty and service manual availability

 

[Count Dacula]

OK, you got me. I just ran into the other room to look for the green light that I'd never seen before. The SA-10 doesn't have a green light.

I don't fit any of the stuff you just wrote about owners of the SA-10. I bought based on things like ergonomics: yes, looks to an extent: and great measurements for a disc player.
Yes, measurements. This product would probably have been recommended if Amir hadn't worried about the price and, and maybe because of previous reaction over the TuneTots review. It's transparent. Fact.

I've owned one Marantz component previously, a cheap tuner with very different looks. I have never had one of their old receivers, never owned a tube amp (though I've heard plenty enough to know that tubey is not a thing, anyway). In fact the SA-10 has what was unique and modern software to match non-standard electronics when it was launched. The matching PM-10 has bridged Hypex modules and custom filters. It was launched in 2016, around the same time as the first NAD amps with Hypex modules. Forsake the old for the new, really?

And I don't see why I have to have different brands of equipment, if two products from the same brand measure sufficiently well, look good, and match electrically. I have the above mentioneed PM-10 as well. It also measures excellently, and I was relieved when I blind tested against my previous amp and it wasn't worse.

These things are expensive, but they do actually work and work well. Maybe associating them with old receivers and tube products is your own fallacy.

Actually, the mark of the "true audiophile" is getting facts wrong, believing lots of nonsense and worrying about the wrong things. Does the cap fit?

I think it's hilarious, because I didn't care enough to even look at the color of the light, but you seem to care an awful lot.

To whit: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunk_cost

Sunk costs often influence people's decisions,[7][14] with people believing that investments (i.e., sunk costs) justify further expenditures.[16] People demonstrate "a greater tendency to continue an endeavor once an investment in money, effort, or time has been made".[17][18] This is the sunk cost fallacy, and such behavior may be described as "throwing good money after bad",[19][14] while refusing to succumb to what may be described a
"cutting one's losses".

If you really want to know what I think.

Choice-supportive bias - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

post-purchase rationalization is the tendency to retroactively ascribe positive attributes to an option one has selected and/or to demote the forgone options.[1] It is part of cognitive science, and is a distinct cognitive bias that occurs once a decision is made. For example, if a person chooses option A instead of option B, they are likely to ignore or downplay the faults of option A while amplifying or ascribing new negative faults to option B.

What is remembered about a decision can be as important as the decision itself, especially in determining how much regret or satisfaction one experiences.[2] Research indicates that the process of making and remembering choices yields memories that tend to be distorted in predictable ways.[2]

...in a clinical sense.

 

[Galliardist]

I think it's hilarious, because I didn't care enough to even look at the color of the light, but you seem to care an awful lot.

To whit: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunk_cost


If you really want to know what I think.

Choice-supportive bias - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

...in a clinical sense.

So, because I didn’t have some of the irrational reasons for buying this product that you assigned to me, you need to drag out some more human failings.

I can admit to choice supported bias. It’s not a clinical condition as far as I can see. When discussing disc players here, I’ve recommended other cheaper players that are objectively as good in terms of sound. And I get that this product is not good value for money sound wise, and that my choice has a subjective component to it. Plus, my wife wanted a disk player, without complex controls, or I would probably not have considered a disc player this time round, in fact.

I just object to the things you ascribed as the “only reasons” for buying tbe SA-10 because they didn’t apply to me. And it is plenty good enough objectively.

Out of interest… do you have clinical qualifications?