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Marantz PM17 Mk2 amplifier built-in Phono question

Mambosun92

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Hi everybody,
My recently bought Thorens TD403 DD + Ortofon 2M Blue is connected to the integrated phono preamp of my venerable Marantz PM17 Mk2.
My ATC A7 bookshelf speakers are of the low sensitivity type.
While I’m perfectly happy with the sound result form my TT, I find the volume output of the phono stage to be quite lower than other source such as Tuner or CD.
For most CD I have to crank the volume knob form let’s say 9 to 11 o' clock and it’s between noon and 2 o' clock for the TT.
I was wondering if an external phono preamp (like for instance the Fosi X5 ) would help to narrow down the volume discrepancy?
Thanks in advance for your inputs
 
You'd have to see if you can find out the gain of the Marantz's preamp and compare it to a stand-alone preamp. None of this stuff is "calibrated", and records and cartridges also vary.
 
Thank you very much for your feedback, but that is precisely the problem I am having. I have not been able to find this information and do not know how to do so.
The PM17 instruction manual does not mention this information and this amp having being discontinuited more than 20 years ago.
 
Hi everybody,
My recently bought Thorens TD403 DD + Ortofon 2M Blue is connected to the integrated phono preamp of my venerable Marantz PM17 Mk2.
My ATC A7 bookshelf speakers are of the low sensitivity type.
While I’m perfectly happy with the sound result form my TT, I find the volume output of the phono stage to be quite lower than other source such as Tuner or CD.
For most CD I have to crank the volume knob form let’s say 9 to 11 o' clock and it’s between noon and 2 o' clock for the TT.
I was wondering if an external phono preamp (like for instance the Fosi X5 ) would help to narrow down the volume discrepancy?
Thanks in advance for your inputs
It's quite normal CD with it's typical 2 volts are quite a bit hotter than legacy sources . It's typical in the old days something similar to 0.3v was the norm for a line source ?

It's not really a problem until you run out of volume control or if the old amp cant handle such sources ( check the spec ).

You can also attenuate the cd input with inline attenuators ?

That is also why most integrated amp off the past have a lot of gain you rarely use the upper half the volume pot nowadays ?
Think of old tape decks and old tuners and the occasional VHS, the amp needed to have enough gain so that user could turn it up sufficiently for all sources .

We are a bit spoiled now when for example using Spotify on a phone and the app have automated level adjustment per track basis .
And recordings can vary too ?
We are simply not used to having to adjust volume as often as in the past .

The fosi has gain adjustment so it can do that for you as it has adjustable gain, compare the gain spec of the Marantz ?

OT: I'm also about to rediscover vinyl as a fun exercise , you quickly realize why people moved to digital sources asap :) it's always something off or needed to tinker with endlessly , I've forgotten about for 25 years ( or cassete tape ? *shrug* )
 
Thank you very much for your feedback, but that is precisely the problem I am having. I have not been able to find this information and do not know how to do so.
The PM17 instruction manual does not mention this information and this amp having being discontinuited more than 20 years.

Input sensitivity according to the manual:

MC: 230 uV
MM: 2.5 mV
High Level: 220 mV

These are rather typical values. CD will be much louder than phono since CD players output 2V or more. Nothing to worry about, just use the volime pot.

Most external phono preamps with fixed gain have similar gain (36 to 40 dB) so an exchange would not help.
 
From a service manual. found here . https://retronik.silicium.org/DOCUMENTS/Audiovideo/Marantz/Marantz-PM-17-MK-II-Service-Manual.pdf

Line inputs are at 220mV nominally

ated power output (20 Hz to 20 kHz, 2CH simultaneous drive)............................................... 60 W x 2 (8 Ω load)80 W x 2 (6 Ω load)100 W x 2 (4 Ω load)Total harmonic distortion (20 Hz to 20 kHz, 2CH drive, 8 Ω load) ................................................................. 0.01 %Cross-modulation distortion (SMPTE) ............................................................................................................. 0.01 %Output bandwidth (8 Ω load, 0.04 %). ............................................................................................... 10 Hz to 50 kHzFrequency response (CD, SOURCE DIRECT) ................................................................... 5 Hz to 70 kHz, +0/-1 dBDamping factor (8 Ω load, 20 Hz to 20 kHz).......................................................................................................... 100Input sensitivity/input impedance PHONE (MC) ..................................................................................................................................... 230 μV/100 Ω PHONE (MM) ..................................................................................................................................... 2.5 mV/47 kΩ HIGH LEVEL ..................................................................................................................................... 220 mV/22 kΩ MAIN IN................................................................................................................................................. 1.6 V/22 kΩOutput voltage/output impedance PRE OUT .............................................................................................................................................. 1.6 V/250 ΩMaximum allowable PHONE input (1 kHz) MC .................................................................................................................................................................. 15 mV MM................................................................................................................................................................ 150 mVRIAA deviation (20 Hz to 20 kHz) .................................................................................................................... ±0.2 dBS/N (IHF A network, input shorted) PHONE (MC) .................................................................................................................................................. 76 dB PHONE (MM) .................................................................................................................................................. 90 dB HIGH LEVEL ................................................................................................................................................. 112 dBTone control BASS (100 Hz) ............................................................................................................................................... ±8 dB TREBLE (10 kHz) ........................................................................................................................................... ±8 dBSupply voltage F version ................................................................................................................................... 100 V AC, 50/60 Hz /K1 version ..................................................................................................................... 110 V/220 V AC, 50/60 Hz /N1, /S1 version ............................................................................................................................. 230 V AC, 50 Hz /U1 version ..................................................................................................................................... 120 V AC, 60 HzPower consumption ............................................................................................................................................. 180 WDimensions ( Maximum ) Width ............................................................................................................................................................ 458 mm Height ........................................................................................................................................................... 110 mm Depth ............................................................................................................................................................ 429 mmWeight.................................................................................................................................................................... 16 kgAccessoriesRemote control unit (RC-17mkIIPM) ....................................................................................................................... x 1 Dimensions Width ........................................................................................................................................................... 44 mm Height........................................................................................................................................................ 239 mm Depth ....................................................................................................................................................... 17.5 mm Weight (without batteries)........................................................................................................................... 189 gSUM-4 (R6/ "AA" size) dry cell battery ................................................................................................................... x 2Design and specifications are subject to change without notice.1
 
Input sensitivity according to the manual:

MC: 230 uV
MM: 2.5 mV
High Level: 220 mV

These are rather typical values. CD will be much louder than phono since CD players output 2V or more. Nothing to worry about, just use the volime pot.

Most external phono preamps with fixed gain have similar gain (36 to 40 dB) so an exchange would not help.
The X5 has adjustable gain thou .
 
The X5 has adjustable gain thou .
Well ... does the gain setting works for MM as well? And if it does and you use 48 dB or more, will the output be able to handle higher output voltages? And certainly the overload headroom will suffer.

There was a phono stage tested recently which had ~50 dB fixed gain for MM. Don't remember the model, but this could be a valid choice.
 
We are also loudness war casualties the 2v of CD was likely intended for the vast dynamic range of the media ( think orchestral crescendo ) , not to be peggad at max by modern masters with almost no dynamic range .
 
Hi everybody,
My recently bought Thorens TD403 DD + Ortofon 2M Blue is connected to the integrated phono preamp of my venerable Marantz PM17 Mk2.
My ATC A7 bookshelf speakers are of the low sensitivity type.
While I’m perfectly happy with the sound result form my TT, I find the volume output of the phono stage to be quite lower than other source such as Tuner or CD.
For most CD I have to crank the volume knob form let’s say 9 to 11 o' clock and it’s between noon and 2 o' clock for the TT.
I was wondering if an external phono preamp (like for instance the Fosi X5 ) would help to narrow down the volume discrepancy?
Thanks in advance for your inputs

There are two resistors that you'd want to change. R411 and R412, from 100 ohms (original value), to 82 ohms.
 
Thanks a lot to all of you for your inputs.
I think I should wisely stick to someone suggestion that I just have to crank the volume of my amp.
As Montesquieu once said: “best is the enemy of good”.
I was too a bit worried about using an external phono stage to boost the gain further ( like with the Fosi x5) at the expense of loosing headroom, and possibly get distortion and hiss.
Regarding the suggestion about swapping resistors, sorry but as I’m not a tech myself , this couldn’t be a option.
 
(...) I have not been able to find this information and do not know how to do so. (...)

That's actually pretty simple, as the input sensitivities for each stage/section are specified, with the input sensitivities telling you the required signal voltages for reaching the rated output power with the volume control fully turned up. So for calculating the phono stage gains you'd simply calculate the gain in dB this way:

gain in dB = 20 x log (line-in sensitivty / phono input sensitivity)

So in case of your Marantz, that would be not quite 38.9 dB for MM and a tad over 59.6 dB for MC.

And of course you could also determine the line-level stage gain the same way with the main-in sensitivity and the line-in sensitivity. The result being a tad over 17.2 dB.

Whereas for calculating the power-amp stage gain you'd first convert the rated output power into a corresponding output voltage (P = U x I = U² / R, so U = (P x R)^0.5), which in case of your Marantz would be (60 W x 8 Ohm)^0.5 = a tad over 21.9 V. And then you can use the same formula once again with that corresponding output voltage and the main-in sensitivity - the result being a tad over 22.7 dB.

(...) I think I should wisely stick to someone suggestion that I just have to crank the volume of my amp. (...)
I was too a bit worried about using an external phono stage to boost the gain further ( like with the Fosi x5) at the expense of loosing headroom, and possibly get distortion and hiss. (...)

Well, regarding the former, you could certainly do that. Which also wouldn't really mean, that your Marantz would need to work harder than with the higher input level from CD, btw, because its volume control acts as a variable voltage divider, so its position simply determines the share of the input voltage delivered by the line-level sources (or respectively the phono stage), that goes into the line-level stage.

And in case you'd wonder about the level difference: In case of digital sources there's a pretty hard limit in form of the 0-dB-full-scale mark, and in case of typical CD players for home use the corresponding output voltage typically is ca. 2 V(eff.) for unbalanced outputs. Whereas in case of records there not only already are at least three somewhat different typical 0 dB marks (namely JIS, NAB and DIN), but in practice so-called "hot cuts" may also exceed these marks pretty considerably. And then phono cartridges also vary pretty considerably in terms of output voltage - like for example in the realm of models intended for MM inputs from ca. 2.5 mV (high output MCs and low output MMs and MIs) up to over 10 mV at 1 kHz and 5 cm/s in 45°/stereo modulation (some DJ/broadcast models). Hence the gain of non-gain-adjustable phono stages is typically chosen somewhat conservatively to provide a reasonable headroom/overload margin.

Anyway, back to your Marantz: If you'd download the service manual for that, you could see, that it's a pretty classic design with electromechanical signal switching via relays in the input section of its pre-amp section - and in case of its line-level inputs there aren't any active stages, before the signals go into the volume control pot in front of the actual line-level stage (except for the CD input, that is, which sports a little unity-gain buffer in form of an OPA2064 opamp, but only for feeding the record outputs - and that is fed with a symmetrical supply voltage of ,+/- 18.2 V, so that it has quite a bit of reserve for pretty hot line-level signals...). Which means, that going for an external phono stage with higher gain(s) wouldn't really be a problem, in case you'd like to reduce the volume control position difference between CD and phono.

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini
 
Thanks a lot for your very informative post, though admitidly my very limited notions of maths & physics did'nt allow me to catch all your detailed explanations.
Like I said above, I'm not a tech guy. and would see if I can live with the necessary volume pot adjustment on my amp.
 
Thanks a lot for your very informative post, though admitidly my very limited notions of maths & physics did'nt allow me to catch all your detailed explanations. (...)

You're welcome. And no problem - at least you now know the phono stage gain(s) in dB, so you can compare, and that an external phono stage with somewhat higher gain wouldn't pose a problem, if you'd like to try one.

Oh, and btw, I found a bug in the schematic - 'cause that aforementioned opamp buffer for the CD input isn't an OPA2064, as the schematic would claim, but rather an OPA2604.

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini
 
I own and use the same Marantz integrated in my listening room, attached to Monitor Audio Silver 100 standmount speakers. I found that I prefer to use a stand alone phono preamp over the Marantz phono preamp; in my case, I am using a Moon LP3 phono preamp. The phono pre in the Marantz is not bad, but I feel it sounds better in MM mode than in MC mode. I do recall having to run the volume control higher when using the Marantz phono preamp vs. the external pre.
 
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