Marantz Model 30

[restorer-john]

The questions that remain
a) Can Amir reproduce these showcase waveforms with ALPHA processing?
b) How do modern DACs from ESS and AKM handle these test tracks? Do all modern DACs have the same results? Again, this is only for 16/44.
c) Is any of this audible to his golden ears or measurable on real-world music beyond their test tracks?

@GXAlan Have you looked at the Denon one point Alpha demo disc tracks yourself on a range of players using a CRO/DSO?

 

[VintageFlanker]

But only 107 dB SNR?
$2500 is also a bit pricey in my opinion without integrated HEOS/DAC.

The SACD 30 specifications match the SA-KI
112 dB SNR and 109dB Dynamic Range in SACD mode (presumably DAC mode also)

But that's not as good as
Denon DCD-SX1
122 dB and 118 dB

These are all manufacturers specs. Not very valuable until someone check them by tier-measurments.

 

[GXAlan]

@GXAlan Have you looked at the Denon one point Alpha demo disc tracks yourself on a range of players using a CRO/DSO?

I don't have an oscilloscope, and wouldn't be convinced that I am doing the assessment fairly. I'm relying on @amirm's expertise.

I have looked at the demo tracks myself with digital audio software. The tracks match the description provided by Denon, so they aren't being fishy there. When I use software resampling, it doesn't look good.

This is Track #11 at 16/44.1 resampled to 32/176.4 kHz. It doesn't look like a sine wave.

While interesting, it really only tells you how that singe device works. There is no guarantee that the latest versions do the same.. or even anything at all.

Agree 100%. That's why I asked @amirm to test the X3700 or X4700 as well to see if the latest versions still do the same thing (or anything at all). He does these tests out of interest, and he's very busy and secretive until test results are finished so I don’t know if he took the time to measure the Denon AVRs.

1 - If ALPHA doesn't work on the original designs, it's not worth wasting time on the AVRs.
2 - If ALPHA does work, then it is worth seeing if the latest "AL32" versions do the same or anything at all.

The original ALPHA makes sense because the PCM-63K and PCM-1702J are designed for external digital filter chips. The AKM DACs in AVRs are not designed this way, but potentially the algorithm can convert 16/44 to 24/88 or 24/172 intelligently.

 

[Kegemusha]

The Nissan Juke, of the HiFi world, the design is a love it or hate it .
Too expensive for me anyways.

 

[Koeitje]

I'll answer my own question and suggest they are using the Hypex continuous power figure.

Pretty sure its just an NC250. Even NC500 doesn't hit 100W/ch RMS according to the spec sheet. Doesn't matter in real life use, because you never hit those RMS values.

 

[voodooless]

This is Track #11 at 16/44.1 resampled to 32/176.4 kHz. It doesn't look like a sine wave.

View attachment 81220

Why would you expect it to look like one? The original isn’t one either as far as can de deduced from the picture.. I’d rather like to see only the sample points, not the hypothetical lines the software draws in between.

Agree 100%. That's why I asked @amirm to test the X3700 or X4700 as well to see if the latest versions still do the same thing (or anything at all). He does these tests out of interest, and he's very busy and secretive until test results are finished so I don’t know if he took the time to measure the Denon AVRs.

I’m pretty sure you cannot disable the processing on them? So will be hard to be sure of anything. You could just check the spectrum a bit further up to see the DAC’s stopband filter vs the upsampling filter (if any). Then at least we would know that it does upsampling.

The original ALPHA makes sense because the PCM-63K and PCM-1702J are designed for external digital filter chips. The AKM DACs in AVRs are not designed this way, but potentially the algorithm can convert 16/44 to 24/88 or 24/172 intelligently.

That is the whole point, what once was a necessary reconstruction filter, might now just be some upsampling algorithm.. hardly a must have defining feature, and if not defeatable, possibly a dealbreaker for some, as would be HDAM

 

[Rizzle]

Pretty sure its just an NC250. Even NC500 doesn't hit 100W/ch RMS according to the spec sheet. Doesn't matter in real life use, because you never hit those RMS values.

According to Hypex's specifications of the NC500 OEM 02xx it does hit 100W per channel RMS.

Link to the entire datasheet:
https://www.hypex.nl/img/upload/doc/ncore/nc500/Documentation/NC500_OEM_02xx_R11.pdf

It seems weird that Marantz would lie about it in their specifications:

Link:
https://us.marantz.com/shop/amplifier/model30

 

[Rizzle]

The text at the link on the US site seems to have some errors. It describes the phono MM - MC low/med/high switch as an impedance switch. Maybe, but more likely a combination of gain with an appropriate MM vs MC load impedance.

More unfortunately it does not seem confident in itself, describing itself as a piece of sh*t with a "dumping factor - 500"

In the Japanese specifications they also specify that the input sensitivity in all three MC settings is 250 μV.

I don't know if that clears anything up (I don't know how gain is measured )

The price in Japan is a lot nicer too, €2150 without tax so €2360 with tax included.

 

[anmpr1]

it is pretty but not Accuphase pretty

It's pretty expensive, but not Accuphase pretty expensive.

 

[dougi]

In the Japanese specifications they also specify that the input sensitivity in all three MC settings is 250 μV.

View attachment 81243
I don't know if that clears anything up (I don't know how gain is measured )

The price in Japan is a lot nicer too, €2150 without tax so €2360 with tax included.

So it is does offer impedance choices for MC. Thanks for digging this up!

 

[Matias]

Pretty sure its just an NC250. Even NC500 doesn't hit 100W/ch RMS according to the spec sheet. Doesn't matter in real life use, because you never hit those RMS values.

 

[TimF]

It looks like a radio/entertainment module in an automobile dashboard. A unit surrounded by a plastic molding.

 

[typericey]

My thoughts on the amp:

• If the street price is ~$2000 then that's "okay" pricing already for a branded product
• Good that they didn't include a DAC, but I hope the phono stage measures well
• Speaking of measurements, I hope its not any worse than the NC500's
• The aesthetics is for millenials, not for us old farts. That said, I wish they had gone the retro route (i.e. 70-80's or maybe even 90s), because "retro" is something all generations can agree on

 

[dougi]

Pretty sure its just an NC250. Even NC500 doesn't hit 100W/ch RMS according to the spec sheet. Doesn't matter in real life use, because you never hit those RMS values.

No, NC500 is 100W continuous (I assume RMS):

 

[Martin]

I don't know why Marantz is sticking with that godawful peephole screen. It's useless unless you're right on top of it.

Martin

 

[KaiserSoze]

Looks nice. The white one is definitely looks like a "lifestyle" product. [but what about the speakers and speaker cable?]

But only 107 dB SNR?
$2500 is also a bit pricey in my opinion without integrated HEOS/DAC.

The SACD 30 specifications match the SA-KI
112 dB SNR and 109dB Dynamic Range in SACD mode (presumably DAC mode also)

But that's not as good as
Denon DCD-SX1
122 dB and 118 dB

or even the DCD-1600NE
117dB and 112dB

And the Denon's have AL32 Processing Plus.

View attachment 80883

I'm curious to know what level of SNR and dynamic range you think would be at the point where no further improvement would make any audible difference Well to be honest it seems to me that these kinds of numbers are already past that point given that both numbers cover a range from just barely audible to nearly deafening. But other people don't see it this way, so I'm just curious what these numbers would need to be before you would say that no further improvement would make any difference.

 

[KaiserSoze]

From a user standpoint, the idea of supporting phono demands at the minimum a subsonic filter and a mono switch. When I see high priced gear that is supposed to support phono playback without those, I know that the thinking behind the product is not complete.

To it's credit it does feature a balance control and tone controls. So it is halfway there.

Personally I wouldn't have cared about the phono support (to each his own) however I am drawn to the recent Yamaha products because they have brought back the variable loudness control which is something I have been missing these past twenty-five years. Marantz clearly does not believe in loudness controls, even though it is the only way to keep perceived tonality relatively constant for different volume settings. I like the look of these new Marantz products, and I applaud them for taking the leap with Class D. I even like the new affordable amp and CD player also introduced. But I want my loudness control back.

 

[KaiserSoze]

Am I the only one who thinks that the styling is ugly and contrived?

I was actually looking at these last night and it took only about fifteen minutes for the appeal to wear down. I suspect that this new aesthetic will start looking tired before its time. It's kind of hard to tell from the pictures but it looks to me like the larger full-width full-height front panel with the ridges and valleys is kind of concave or recessed in the middle, such that the small front panel with controls sits back almost flush with the edges. Not quite flush, but more than is apparent in the photos. I'm not sure whether that recessed look is going to look good in person. Hard to say without seeing it, but I just wonder.

 

[KaiserSoze]

The text at the link on the US site seems to have some errors. It describes the phono MM - MC low/med/high switch as an impedance switch. Maybe, but more likely a combination of gain with an appropriate MM vs MC load impedance.

More unfortunately it does not seem confident in itself, describing itself as a piece of sh*t with a "dumping factor - 500"

Yeah, as dumping factors go ...

 

[KaiserSoze]

That volume setting brought the neighbors into the room to see what was going on. Probably it was a good 20 dB louder than the level at which many people would play similar music (not that particular music ...), but if we assume +15 dB, corresponding to a linear factor of 32, we find that for many people 25 Watts would have been plenty.

The amount of power you need depends very greatly on many factors: speaker efficiency, room size, how loud you like to listen to it, even the kind of recordings you listen to.