marantz inquiry

[hawk01]

to the more knowledgeable folks here at ASR, i humbly seek thy wisdom so that i may follow the straight and narrow path. i copied a portion of marantz literature on their website below. to a total novice like me, something that may across as useful knowledge or hogwash BS. i hope y’all could shed light on what this tech babble is all about?? let me know thy thoughts! cheers!

 

[PierreV]

I am not a member of the more knowledgeable crowd, but this looks like a decent summary of the concepts.

https://www.electronicdesign.com/te...n-voltagefeedback-and-currentfeedback-op-amps

So pluses and minuses.

A Marantz HDAM-Sn advertisement blurb for another product

"Current Feedback amplification, a renowned Marantz-proprietary circuit technology, is thoughtfully designed to match the requirements of Super Audio hi-res music for wide-bandwidth, high-speed reproduction. The impedance at the Current Feedback point is limited, generating a very low phase shift. Marantz Current Feedback amplifiers reduce the need for phase compensation by minimizing Negative Feedback (NFB). This simplifies the signal path and results in a high through-rate, excellent transient response and superb sonic transparency across the full bandwidth. Unlike conventional Voltage Feedback topology, Current Feedback renders the power amplifier nearly immune to difficult loudspeaker loads."

So far so good.... the concept is similar to the one described on electronic design but, there's a difference

"Marantz developed its own discrete circuit boards called Hyper-Dynamic Amplifier Modules, or HDAMs, to replace the chip-based amps used elsewhere. Using discrete surface mount components with short mirror-image left and right signal paths, HDAMs outperform the regular integrated Op-amps dramatically in Slew Rate and noise level. The result is much more dynamic, accurate and detailed sound. Over the years, Marantz developed different HDAMs to fit the particular requirements of each player and amplifier. The PM7000N uses the high-grade SA3 version"

Marantz will, of course, claim that their option is better than the alternative. However, based on the test results of very similar devices (Denon vs Marantz) here, it seems that Marantz HDAM-S isn't delivering on its promises. I think I saw some very competent members here express the opinion that Marantz would be better off (from a strict measurement point of view) if it dropped HDAM and started doing things differently.

Anyway, as an end-user, I don't think I care about how results are achieved but only care about what the result is.

Plus, I don't have "Super Audio" music. Just normal audio music.

 

[hawk01]

nice chunk of worthy information @PierreV! if only to compare marantz HDAM-S on the measured performance of their avrs to denon it becomes apparent that their’s is delivering short of expectation. makes you wonder why after measuring so poorly they still keep implementing it on the later models only to measure so poorly again! reason for my deeper query into this is i am considering one of their integrated amplifiers with onboard streaming feature. hmm, may be worth a deeper second look or seek other options.

 

[amirm]

They are looking for differentiation at the expense of performance.

 

[hawk01]

They are looking for differentiation at the expense of performance.

aww, this is just a very bad, very poor business model especially nowadays when everything and anything is easily within everybody’s reach! i am sure they can do better than that if they just get off that high chair of heritage and culture.

 

[Itisawesome]

What I found when listening to a marantz amp with current feedback topology and a Hegel that presumably has voltage feedback topology was that the marantz amp had crisp detailed high frequencies whereas the Hegel sounded dull. I’d be interested to know why this is not measured? In the end I decided against Hegel because the experience was that I am losing part of the music reproduction and the Hegel seemed unfaithful to the original music recording

 

[Chrispy]

What I found when listening to a marantz amp with current feedback topology and a Hegel that presumably has voltage feedback topology was that the marantz amp had crisp detailed high frequencies whereas the Hegel sounded dull. I’d be interested to know why this is not measured? In the end I decided against Hegel because the experience was that I am losing part of the music reproduction and the Hegel seemed unfaithful to the original music recording

What if its just poor comparison methods/sonic memory?

 

[Itisawesome]

What if its just poor comparison methods/sonic memory?

Nice questions.

The listening comparison setups were designed and implemented by a very experienced owner of a reputable high-end retailer that measured the frequency response at the listening seated position using a white noise generator and microphone to ensure frequency response at listening position was flat enough in his opinion. All I had to do was provide the music tracks to audition and back to back comparison were done swapping hegel with marantz and using same DAC and speakers for both comparisons. Only change was amp. The retail owner was surprised at the capability of an old 2002 marantz sr8300 vs new hegel h190 in driving magnepan 1.7i speakers. He didn’t sell marantz.

What I walked away with was what I’ve been told by many experienced audiophiles that at the end of the day one needs to conduct a listening audition in same room with same music tracks where only change one variable which is the item being purchased.

 

[Chrispy]

Nice questions.

The listening comparison setups were designed and implemented by a very experienced owner of a reputable high-end retailer that measured the frequency response at the listening seated position using a white noise generator and microphone to ensure frequency response at listening position was flat enough in his opinion. All I had to do was provide the music tracks to audition and back to back comparison were done swapping hegel with marantz and using same DAC and speakers for both comparisons. Only change was amp. The retail owner was surprised at the capability of an old 2002 marantz sr8300 vs new hegel h190 in driving magnepan 1.7i speakers. He didn’t sell marantz.

What I walked away with was what I’ve been told by many experienced audiophiles that at the end of the day one needs to conduct a listening audition in same room with same music tracks where only change one variable which is the item being purchased.

How were those level matched? Was it a blind test? Reputable high end....so he sells no silly cabling or accessories like that?

 

[mhardy6647]

I was reflecting on the phrase reputable high end myself... wondering if it might be an oxymoron...

ahem
OK, let me start again...

I was amused by this phrase in the quoted blurb from Marantz:

... Marantz Current Feedback amplifiers reduce the need for phase compensation by minimizing Negative Feedback (NFB). This simplifies the signal path...

emphasis added

Minimizing NFB suggests to me that it's still implemented -- so I am rather skeptical of the notion that the signal path is simplified -- i.e., I presume the NFB topology differs quantitatively more than qualitatively... but it's still there.
And there's no claim that they eliminate the need for phase compensation... again (presumably) those aspects are still present in the design.
Not sure that would count as simplified.