Marantz Cinema 70s AVR Review

[peng]

@trl find it in different thread here

Marantz CINEMA 70s AVR - Teardown, personal thoughts and a few measurements

MultEQ is essentially useless for bass correction, it just doesn’t have enough filter taps. Since bass is where correction is needed most, best leave it turned off. Multeq XT32 does have decent bass correction, but is not available on lower end devices like the 70s. Doesn’t bother me as I...

www.audiosciencereview.com

I think that is important to clarify that, becouse most user, who buy this amp, and use it with preouts to external amp for music use subwoofer too, like me, and that level od degradation is not acceptable, and better not to buy external amp instead.

I use QA3030C fronts, 3090C central speaker, 3010c surround and Monitor Audio Radius 380 sub. Tidal Music playing just on 3030C and Radius 380 sub.

I think you don't need to worry about that because 1) even 57.6 is very listenable except you might hear noise in a quiet room and/or during quiet passages, 2). That low SINAD scenario is most likely only when you use HEOS, I would likely never use it (and never like Tidal, that I think is overrated, relative to Amazon unlimited and Qobuz but I know that's just me..).

 

[markic]

@peng In my case, I only use Tidal (becouse in my country Qobuz i Amazon is not supported), and only listen with HEOS. But Idn that measurement is maybe software problem, and maybe solved till now, doesnt make sense just HEOS + stereo make that problem. I now it is listenable at 57db, but if I plan to add better power amp like Vibelink (which is rated to over 100db sinad), there is no logic to add it to chain with such a low measurements, in case if no need for extra power, which I don't need...

 

[peng]

@peng In my case, I only use Tidal (becouse in my country Qobuz i Amazon is not supported), and only listen with HEOS. But Idn that measurement is maybe software problem, and maybe solved till now, doesnt make sense just HEOS + stereo make that problem. I now it is listenable at 57db, but if I plan to add better power amp like Vibelink (which is rated to over 100db sinad), there is no logic to add it to chain with such a low measurements, in case if no need for extra power, which I don't need...

It has nothing to do with stereo but HEOS, stereo is in the equation because you use HEOS, I don’t know if the software by itself would add THD+N but the hardware, that is the HEOS receiver IC/chip will add THD+N for sure.

My bias on Tidal is nothing other than their customer service and their jumping in bed with MQA, that added cost, they might have guven up on MQA by now though.

 

[markic]

@peng As you said, maybe it's Tidal and MQA, in time of trl testing, Tidal was MQA base, later that year they back to flac, maybe is situation better now. But problem not just with HEOS it self, Pure direct and direct measure 94db SINAD with HEOS, problem is just HEOS with stereo mode. If @trl still have C70s, will be good to measure Tidal or any other streaming service, or flac reproduction in HEOS stereo mode.

 

[peng]

@peng As you said, maybe it's Tidal and MQA, in time of trl testing, Tidal was MQA base, later that year they back to flac, maybe is situation better now. But problem not just with HEOS it self, Pure direct and direct measure 94db SINAD with HEOS, problem is just HEOS with stereo mode. If @trl still have C70s, will be good to measure Tidal or any other streaming service, or flac reproduction in HEOS stereo mode.

You misunderstood what I said, I did not mean Tidal caused the sinad drop, I simple give the reason I didn’t prefer Tidal. The sinad drop, is caused mainly by the HEOS receiver IC, but that is just me educated guess based on circumstantial information only.

 

[markic]

Sorry, everything is clear now, English is not my native language, and I don't use Translate or Ai to read and write. I get it, HEOS IC, but in Pure Direct and Direct, measurements are ok, just in stereo, so problem is obviously when HEOS IC combined with DSP.

 

[trl]

@peng As you said, maybe it's Tidal and MQA, in time of trl testing, Tidal was MQA base, later that year they back to flac, maybe is situation better now. But problem not just with HEOS it self, Pure direct and direct measure 94db SINAD with HEOS, problem is just HEOS with stereo mode. If @trl still have C70s, will be good to measure Tidal or any other streaming service, or flac reproduction in HEOS stereo mode.

In Stereo Mode I was not getting very good results, instead I was using the DTS or Dolby Surround to achieve the best results. Can't remember very well the setup scenario from back then, given that it's been over 2 years since then, but I can try to retest a specific scenario, if requested, when I'll have some time for it though.

 

[peng]

Sorry, everything is clear now, English is not my native language, and I don't use Translate or Ai to read and write. I get it, HEOS IC, but in Pure Direct and Direct, measurements are ok, just in stereo, so problem is obviously when HEOS IC combined with DSP.

After doing more reading on this topic, I changed my mind, and no longer think the IC, that is the chip is the use because the HEOS IC is only used on dedicate HEOS device such as the HEOS speakers, but for AVRs, such a separate IC/DSP is not needed but the block diagrams do show a network processor module that is an IC, so still an extra hardware piece though it likely is not the main culprit, but the software, and probably the whole HEOS platform/system likely contributed to the huge drop in SINAD.

Regardless, from trl's tests, the 57.6 dB SINAD was only when HEOS, or Airplay were used for streaming. Airplay did a little better, same hardware but the software used would be a little different.

When I had the AVR-X4400H, I tried HEOS briefly and quickly gave up on it because it sounded less transparent, a bit like comparing FM to wide band AM receiver kind of sound quality. The Cinema AVRs series 2 supposedly have improved on the HEOS platform, though that might not be for better sound quality.

 

[markic]

As you sad, HEOS is maybe not a problem then network processor module, but, strange thing is, both thing doing great i pure modes, just in stereo mode when dsp is active problem shows, so this is not just one thing, it's some specific combination that makes this problem. So when @trl have time to do another round of measurement will bi good to find cleanest way for 2.1 music listening on this device with preouts.

Edit: One more thing come to my mind, to test optical in - preout SINAD. Example, Some streamer - optical - C70s - Preout. Maybe that path can exclude stereo mode problem. And some external streamer/dac, like Wiim, be a much better solution then HEOS.

 

[popej]

just in stereo mode when dsp is active problem shows

Since DSP is active, then results depend on algorithms active. For example: was restorer turned off?

 

[peng]

As you sad, HEOS is maybe not a problem then network processor module, but, strange thing is, both thing doing great i pure modes, just in stereo mode when dsp is active problem shows, so this is not just one thing, it's some specific combination that makes this problem. So when @trl have time to do another round of measurement will bi good to find cleanest way for 2.1 music listening on this device with preouts.

Edit: One more thing come to my mind, to test optical in - preout SINAD. Example, Some streamer - optical - C70s - Preout. Maybe that path can exclude stereo mode problem. And some external streamer/dac, like Wiim, be a much better solution then HEOS.

Good point, but there really isn't anything that could explain "stereo mode" by itself would drop SINAD that much. The only thing in common when trl's measurements show the big drop in SINAD is Airplay, HEOS, that is, whenever the signal had to go through the network module.

I have no idea why the combination HEOS and Direct mode would do 40 dB better, so if he has time, I hope he would do a couple of test to ensure that the almost 40 dB difference was in fact due to Stereo vs Direct mode. As popej alluded to, may be in the stereo mode test, trl had other settings on/active? don't really know..

Below is block diagram for the C70's predecessor, this most likely remain the same for the C70:

 

[markic]

@peng @popej Yes, that's a good point, becouse in Direct modes everything was off Audissey, EQ, Dynamic Volume, Restorer, but in stereo mode you can turn on any of this setting, so, as you said, there is no reason for that much SINAD drop in stereo just for DSP working for sub, that is a easy logic for processor, but Audissey, EQ, Dynamic Volume, Restorer is not, so I guess when he switched to stereo for test, some other setting are on and becouse of that SINAD drops so much.

Will be great to test stereo mode just with dsp and everything other off, and then, add one by one setting and test which of them is causing that SINAD drop.

 

[peng]

@peng @popej Yes, that's a good point, becouse in Direct modes everything was off Audissey, EQ, Dynamic Volume, Restorer, but in stereo mode you can turn on any of this setting, so, as you said, there is no reason for that much SINAD drop in stereo just for DSP working for sub, that is a easy logic for processor, but Audissey, EQ, Dynamic Volume, Restorer is not, so I guess when he switched to stereo for test, some other setting are on and becouse of that SINAD drops so much.

Will be great to test stereo mode just with dsp and everything other off, and then, add one by one setting and test which of them is causing that SINAD drop.

Great idea but it would take a lot of time, but hopefully trl would do it.

 

[markic]

We hope for that

 

[markic]

Tried last week Emotiva A2L+ and Wiim Vibelink on 70s pre-out, on both didn't hear difference Pure vs Stereo. Emotiva sounds a bit better, and better suited as pure power amp, Vibelink sound good too, but have ground loop sometimes on my setup, because of class I psu, and have low input sensitivity and can't sync with other speakers even at full volume, so in this case, Vibelink is not good solution (may be valuable info if someone plan to use Vibelink as power amp on 70s pre-out).

So, I think stereo mode (without any effect as Audissey, MDAX, EQ etc...) won't degrade sinad so much, and if @trl do measurements in future, think we will confirm that.

 

[markic]

Did a "free measurements test" today and find something interesting. Set volume to maximum and put ear close to speaker and there is a noise, barely noticable with ear on speaker, tried on direct and stereo mode, then tried to turn effects one by one, first Multy EQ set on "Reference", immediately noise get so louder, even with 1m from speaker can be heard, tried other effects and results are the same, turn everything off and noise almost gone. So answer is, I suppose, that 57db sinad is on stereo mode with at least one of effect on, and that causes SINAD drop.

One thing to mention, even if I turn every effect on, noise is the same, and don't go louder, as on just one effect turned on. And different in noise is soo noticable. Of course everyone can try this on own Cinema.

 

[peng]

Did a "free measurements test" today and find something interesting. Set volume to maximum and put ear close to speaker and there is a noise, barely noticable with ear on speaker, tried on direct and stereo mode, then tried to turn effects one by one, first Multy EQ set on "Reference", immediately noise get so louder, even with 1m from speaker can be heard, tried other effects and results are the same, turn everything off and noise almost gone. So answer is, I suppose, that 57db sinad is on stereo mode with at least one of effect on, and that causes SINAD drop.

One thing to mention, even if I turn every effect on, noise is the same, and don't go louder, as on just one effect turned on. And different in noise is soo noticable. Of course everyone can try this on own Cinema.

Did you mean Audyssey XT on the noise gets louder without touching the volume? If so, it could just be, at least partly, because of the boost it made to certain frequencies.

 

[markic]

Yes, volume is already on maximum, so can't go louder, interesting thing is when turn on anything (Audissey, Dynamic volume, etc...) Multy EQ is turned on automatically, and if you turn it off, everything else turn's off, Multy EQ is must effect for everything else to work. So suppose effects have some path which raises noise and make things worse.

 

[markic]

After a long time of listening and testing, the conclusion is unfortunately not a great one.

Everything mentioned above is present. Every effect increases the background noise, but the poor SINAD is also caused by the DSP. In Stereo mode, with all effects disabled, the background noise is good, but the sound starts clipping when the song is mastered close to 0 dBFS.

A few examples are:

• Adele – Hello
• Natalie Merchant – The Blind Men And The Elephant

So, basically, every song mastered close to 0 dBFS can cause this issue.

In Pure modes, there is no clipping.

The conclusion is that in every mode and with every input where DSP is involved, even if it is used only for the crossover, clipping can occur.

For music reproduction, the Pure modes are clearly the best sounding. The front speakers remain full range, but you still have the option to use a subwoofer with only the LPF applied, which is a great compromise.

I also tested several external amplifiers, including the Emotiva A2L+, WiiM Vibelink, Aiyima A20, and Fosi ZA3 with the TI OPA1656.

Every amplifier sounded better than the internal amplification. However, the Aiyima and Vibelink don't have suitable input sensitivity for proper integration. With the Aiyima, the front speakers need to be set to +7 dB, while with the Vibelink, even the maximum available level is not enough.

The Emotiva and Fosi both sound great, but I decided to keep the Fosi because of its smaller size.

With an external amplifier, the Marantz sounds great for both music and movies in this configuration.

I think that if someone measures all the different modes, they will find that every mode except the Pure modes has worse SINAD.

 

[peng]

After a long time of listening and testing, the conclusion is unfortunately not a great one.

Everything mentioned above is present. Every effect increases the background noise, but the poor SINAD is also caused by the DSP. In Stereo mode, with all effects disabled, the background noise is good, but the sound starts clipping when the song is mastered close to 0 dBFS.

A few examples are:

• Adele – Hello
• Natalie Merchant – The Blind Men And The Elephant

So, basically, every song mastered close to 0 dBFS can cause this issue.

In Pure modes, there is no clipping.

The conclusion is that in every mode and with every input where DSP is involved, even if it is used only for the crossover, clipping can occur.

For music reproduction, the Pure modes are clearly the best sounding. The front speakers remain full range, but you still have the option to use a subwoofer with only the LPF applied, which is a great compromise.

I also tested several external amplifiers, including the Emotiva A2L+, WiiM Vibelink, Aiyima A20, and Fosi ZA3 with the TI OPA1656.

Every amplifier sounded better than the internal amplification. However, the Aiyima and Vibelink don't have suitable input sensitivity for proper integration. With the Aiyima, the front speakers need to be set to +7 dB, while with the Vibelink, even the maximum available level is not enough.

The Emotiva and Fosi both sound great, but I decided to keep the Fosi because of its smaller size.

With an external amplifier, the Marantz sounds great for both music and movies in this configuration.

I think that if someone measures all the different modes, they will find that every mode except the Pure modes has worse SINAD.

If I had the Cinema 70 I probably would use Pure or Direct mode and not Audyssey because it only comes with Mult EQ, currently the lowest Audyssey version. Regarding the Fosi amp vs Aiyima, they are very comparable, if you can't get the Aiyima to sound as loud, you should double check the gain selector.