Marantz Cinema 70s AVR Review

[ziggurcat]

Fair enough, sales prices change regularly so it is hard to compare. If we go by list prices on manufacture websites then:

Canada
Cinema 70: $1,600
AVR-X3800H: $2,249

USA
Cinema 70: $1,200
AVR-X3800H: $1,699

Only a few years ago, I was able to get the Marantz SR7012 or SR7013 for less than the Denon AVR-X4400H and X4500H from Bestbuy or Amazon.ca, but thanks for the last several years when many youtubers including some popular professional reviewers bs about how Marantz had better stuff (true to a point, very small point) in them that justifed the premium, the gap between their comparable products are now more significant, unlike in Europe and Asia.

Base on trend, I think there is a much better chance for the AVR-X3800H to go down to around C$1,600 but it would likely take a long time for the C70 to reach the below $1,500 mark. That's why I said if it goes below $1,000, or C$1,300, I would grab on in a hurry.

By the way, I agree the fair comparison to the Denon is the Cinema 50, but that thing has been listed at $3,299-$3,300 steady for a long time now, really ridiculous, vs Denon's. @Thomas_A , how much can you guys get the Cinema 50 for in Sweden, or somewhere in Europe, France, Germany etc.?

I'm really just waiting for Gibbys to get their B-Stock C70s back because for ~$1k, I would probably get for that price.

 

[peng]

I'm really just waiting for Gibbys to get their B-Stock C70s back because for ~$1k, I would probably get for that price.

For B stock, I would probably go in the store so I can see the condition of the unit and talk to the rep but that's only because I am within driving distance.

 

[trl]

I finally managed to make HEOS app to work with ALEXA, after changing Country of residence in my Amazon account to some random location from U.S. Now I'm able to use my Echo 4 to control CINEMA 70s; I managed to increase/decrease/mute volume, change the Input source etc., but I suppose that all the commands from HEOS Home should work now.

 

[ziggurcat]

For B stock, I would probably go in the store so I can see the condition of the unit and talk to the rep but that's only because I am within driving distance.

My current AVR was B-Stock from Gibbys - spent half the retail at the time (early 2020), and it was brand new, mint, in box (only that cheap cardboard "tripod" was missing). Either I got lucky or that's typically the condition of their B-Stock. If the latter, then I would have no concerns about ordering the 70s from them at that kind of discount.

 

[peng]

My current AVR was B-Stock from Gibbys - spent half the retail at the time (early 2020), and it was brand new, mint, in box (only that cheap cardboard "tripod" was missing). Either I got lucky or that's typically the condition of their B-Stock. If the latter, then I would have no concerns about ordering the 70s from them at that kind of discount.

Thanks will keep an eye on that for sure.

 

[ziggurcat]

Thanks will keep an eye on that for sure.

I will be keeping my eye out as well.

I would still love to hear any feedback from anyone who is using this as an AVP, and which measurement data from this review I can ignore if that's going to be my own use case.

 

[trl]

[...] I would still love to hear any feedback from anyone who is using this as an AVP, and which measurement data from this review I can ignore if that's going to be my own use case.

I'm also using it as a PRE-Out by feeding the Front channel outputs to the Yamaha A-S701 stereo amplifier. It measures pretty well (a SINAD of 93-94dB) even when fed wirelessly via TIDAL (if HEOS app is being used).

 

[LCListener]

I will be keeping my eye out as well.

I would still love to hear any feedback from anyone who is using this as an AVP, and which measurement data from this review I can ignore if that's going to be my own use case.

Adjacent to @ziggurcat’s question, how would C70s owners rate the phono stage?

Most of my listening these days is streaming, but for the last couple of weeks I’ve also had a Pro-Ject Debut Carbon Esprit hooked up directly to the C70s. My previous setup was same TT with a Schiit Mani preamp feeding an NAD receiver. To get anything like decent vinyl dynamics from the C70s, I have to bump up the L&R channels by about 10db.

I woukd prefer to eliminate the preamp box in this multi-use setup. I haven’t had the chance to do an A/B test with the Schiit feeding the C70s.

I know there are many factors and preferences in such a comparison, but I’d love to hear some opinions from other owners. Thanks!

 

[ziggurcat]

For B stock, I would probably go in the store so I can see the condition of the unit and talk to the rep but that's only because I am within driving distance.

Gibbys B-Stock is back - $899 CAD. Had to jump on that, so I ordered. Sorry, it was the Stereo 70s... so I canceled the order

 

[Art of sound]

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Marantz Cinema 70s home theater Audio/Video Receiver (AVR). It was kindly drop shipped by a member and costs US $1,200.
View attachment 333466
The 70s sports the new industrial design of Marantz AV products which I very much like. It looks even more attractive in this slim package. The display is not very informative but I can see it fitting the style now better than it ever did. Back panel shows a simpler layout which again, I prefer:
View attachment 333467

Many of us want a compact setup to go with our flat panel TVs or alternatively serve as our main music and TV/video sound and this is all we need really.

I updated the 70s to latest firmware which took about 10 minutes but otherwise was effortless.

Marantz Cinema 70s DAC/Pre-out Measurements
As usual we start with pre-out to determine the fidelity of digital to analog conversion. Per testing of prior Denon/Marantz products I set the volume to 82.5 and managed to nicely get the 2 volt output using HDMI as a source: (all testing with the output set to "Pre-out")
View attachment 333468
I was really hoping to see noise+distortion as expressed in SINAD to be north of 100 dB but it was not meant to be. I did try Toslink to see if that is any better:

View attachment 333470
The "grass" in the FFT noise floor improves but SINAD remains the same. Going with what we have, the 70s lands in not so good ranking:
View attachment 333471

Sweeping the input levels shows that optimal performance is at lower voltage although you don't gain much:
View attachment 333472

Multitone is at lower level so benefits from above factor:
View attachment 333473

IMD sweep though shows that more optimizations should have been done in noise and distortion front:
View attachment 333474

For comparisons to measurements elsewhere, here is 50 Hz response:
View attachment 333475

There is no filter selection so I was worried that we would see the very slow one from previous generation Marantz products. Fortunately they have adopted a more proper one:
View attachment 333476
Out of band attenuation is very modest though which will cause pain in the wideband THD+N measurements below. Frequency response shows the appropriateness of the filter in that domain:
View attachment 333477

Here is what I talked about:
View attachment 333478

Analyzing the spectrum of a 1 kHz tone shows that the ultrasonic energy is indeed the problem:
View attachment 333576

The unit is susceptible to audio samples when it comes to jitter:
View attachment 333480

Linearity is not great although better than some other AV products:
View attachment 333481

Not a lot to celebrate here although if you look at the review of Marantz NR1510, you will see that it has much rougher results even though top numbers are close.

Marantz Cinema 70s Amplifier Measurements
When I test an amplifier, I first let it warm up at 5 watts into 2 channels of a 4 ohm load. I show this at the end usually since it usually is not eventful. That was not the case here:
View attachment 333482
I left the amp running for a bit and was very surprised when I looked and saw that jump in distortion around 2 minutes. It also has this odd behavior in that every time you send it audio, distortion is higher and then settles down after about 7 seconds. While the amp was warm I don't expect the amplifier to go into any kind of mode to protect itself with just 10 watts of output. Note that I had ECO mode turned off (double checked). Performance before this effect clicked in was already poor. Giving up another 10 dB is just a sin. Here is the same issue in the dashboard:
View attachment 333489

After a minute or two you get this:
View attachment 333490

As noted, once the AVR goes into this mode, you can't get out of it unless you power cycle the amp. Simply turned down the volume, stopping the source, etc. won't make a difference. I almost stopped here as this is just unacceptable. As a minimum it should be documented. But then I considered that the company doesn't seem to be making claims about 4 ohm ability (lowest power rating is at 6 ohm) so I decided to continue and used the better SINAD value in the rankings:
View attachment 333491

If I use the lower number, it would literally fall of the right side of the chart!

Here is an FFT of before and after warm up:
View attachment 333502

FYI I could not replicate the issue at 1 and 2 watts.

Back to the dashboard, I also tested with analog input:
View attachment 333492

Performance is essentially the same so I continued testing with that as that makes comparison to stand-alone amplifiers easier. But I did confirm that in Pure Direct mode, the input is NOT digitized:

View attachment 333493

I set the crossover to 80 Hz and there, if you don't go to Pure Direct, you not only get that crossover, but output gets limited to which indicates it is going through an ADC. Nice to see even in that condition the bandwidth is large seeing how you have output to almost 48 kHz making me think sampling rate of the ADC is 88/96 kHz.

Noise performance is not great at 5 watts but improves at full power:
View attachment 333494

Note that you lose some of this with EQ so we really need better performance.

Multiutone shows the busy grass indicating a lot of intermodulation distortion:
View attachment 333495

Same with 19+20 kHz tones:

View attachment 333497



Crosstalk could definitely be better:
View attachment 333499

We see the distortion kink in the power measurements:
View attachment 333500

Good headroom though since I am only testing two channels and there is power supply capacity for more:
View attachment 333501

Here is the 8 ohm sweep:
View attachment 333503
We beat the spec by 15%.

Sweeping frequencies doesn't impact the overall response but the "hump" behavior changes:
View attachment 333504
FYI sweeping at higher levels caused the AVR to go into protection and would not recover on its own, requiring power cycle. Gave me a scare thinking it was damaged for good!

Conclusions
On the heels of the Marantz AV10 processor review, I had my hopes high for excellent performance but that was dashed with the Cinema 70s. While there seems to be some improvement compared to prior generation, the overall picture doesn't change. DAC performance is just "OK" and amplifier rather poor. Once price goes north of $1,000 I expect better performance. The good looks are there but sadly, the rest is not.

I can't recommend the Marantz Cinema 70s. Company can and should do better.

------------
As always, questions, comments, recommendations, etc. are welcome.

Any donations are much appreciated using: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/how-to-support-audio-science-review.8150/

HDMI in - pre out has 17.5 bits of distortion free range. I am presuming ECO mode is on by default.
Room correction
HDMI arc in and display out (streaming apps)
2 subouts with gain settings controlled from the seat.
backlit and good quality remote.
Subjective reviews shows its better than Audiolab A6000A and more power than Wiim Amp. warm sound, timbre is better according to darko
Not sure about the competition that has pre outs and 2 sub outs w room correction at this price point but this sounds pretty good.

 

[trl]

If ECO Mode = ON then when volume level goes above 50 it automatically sets ECO Mode to OFF. I assume that there was no room correction set in place, so all EQ and Audyssey were not in use for these tests. However, measurements on the Pre-OUT outputs are not affected in any way by the ECO Mode, just the Speakers Outputs.

 

[Art of sound]

If ECO Mode = ON then when volume level goes above 50 it automatically sets ECO Mode to OFF. I assume that there was no room correction set in place, so all EQ and Audyssey were not in use for these tests. However, measurements on the Pre-OUT outputs are not affected in any way by the ECO Mode, just the Speakers Outputs.

Nice. so this device should be a good buy just for the pre-outs and 2 sub's with room correction.
Preouts + Emotiva BASX A5 seems better than going for the expensive AVR's in home theatre. Unless Topping decides to include HDMI ARC in its OCTO DAC's

Looks like ECO mode is there to contain heat.

 

[trl]

CINEMA 70s can't handle two subs, unless you are manually paralellize them. Even AV Receivers with two Sub-OUTs are not able to individually configure both subs in Audyssey (unless specified in the user manual).

 

[peng]

Gibbys B-Stock is back - $899 CAD. Had to jump on that, so I ordered. Sorry, it was the Stereo 70s... so I canceled the order

Yeah, for Cinema 70, I would wait till it drops to $799 like the NR1200 new, or $599 B stock, then I might consider it. That's only if the sub channel can be pinged separately, it probably can do it, by all indications but just not 100% sure yet.

 

[peng]

However, measurements on the Pre-OUT outputs are not affected in any way by the ECO Mode, just the Speakers Outputs.

Did you actually measure it with ECO on and off, to confirm pre-outs are not affected? I don't remember if the C70 has pre out mode, if the pre outs are connected to the power amp inputs, then ECO will have effects on the pre out SINAD measurements when the power amp clips at high enough volume. That's been proven in most of Amir's test results on almost all of D+M AVRs, and based on the fact that if ECO is left on "auto", it will lower the rail voltage, causing the power amps to clip sooner.

 

[trl]

Yeah, for Cinema 70, I would wait till it drops to $799 like the NR1200 new, or $599 B stock, then I might consider it. That's only if the sub channel can be pinged separately, it probably can do it, by all indications but just not 100% sure yet.

As it can be seed in the Audyssey measurements, the sub channel is individually adjusted for room acoustics.

Did you actually measure it with ECO on and off, to confirm pre-outs are not affected? I don't remember if the C70 has pre out mode, if the pre outs are connected to the power amp inputs, then ECO will have effects on the pre out SINAD measurements when the power amp clips at high enough volume. That's been proven in most of Amir's test results on almost all of D+M AVRs, and based on the fact that if ECO is left on "auto", it will lower the rail voltage, causing the power amps to clip sooner.

At least in theory, Pre-OUT should have nothing to do with ECO being Off of On, setting that only adjusts output stage voltage from 96.5V to 38.5V.

I was doing a couple of measurements on the CINEMA 70s Pre-Out (Fronts) -> Yamaha A-S701 with and without Speakers connected on CINEMA 70s and I got 76.6 dB vs. 75.6 dB SINAD (with default 5mV BIAS setting), but given that it was the A-S701 in the middle I'd say that I'll need to measure directly the Pre-Out only, so maybe I'll have time later today to do this, then I'll get back here.

 

[peng]

As it can be seed in the Audyssey measurements, the sub channel is individually adjusted for room acoustics.



At least in theory, Pre-OUT should have nothing to do with ECO being Off of On, setting that only adjusts output stage voltage from 96.5V to 38.5V.

I was doing a couple of measurements on the CINEMA 70s Pre-Out (Fronts) -> Yamaha A-S701 with and without Speakers connected on CINEMA 70s and I got 76.6 dB vs. 75.6 dB SINAD (with default 5mV BIAS setting), but given that it was the A-S701 in the middle I'd say that I'll need to measure directly the Pre-Out only, so maybe I'll have time later today to do this, then I'll get back here.

Gene, I think Amir too, and I agreed with them, that pre out SINAD is affected by the power amps, at least when the power amps clip. That's why preamp mode is desirable, aside from energy consumption.

Eco, by association, therefore also impact on pre out SINAD.

With eco off, pre out SINAD will not degrade much at lower output level, but at about 1.4 to 1.6 V, when, the power amps will begin to clip at that point. That's for the 105 to 125 w rated AVRs.

For the slim line series, pre out SINAD will be affected at even lower output level because their power amps will clip sooner.

With eco on, pre out SINAD will start to degrade at yet even lower output level, because eco lowers the rail voltage, resulting in the power amps starting to clip at lower output level.

So, yes, eco does affect pre out SINAD, because the power amps will clip at lower pre out voltage. How exactly does the clipping power amps increased distortion get back to affect the pre out I can only guess, probably via the feedback loops. Again, that's just my educated guess, we need a competent amp designer to analyze the schematics, to get an authoritative answer.

Above is based on non preamp mode, in preamp mode, the pre outs are disconnected from the inputs of the power amps, so the power amps will not be amplifying, let alone clipping, so eco on/off will have no effects on the pre outs SINAD.

 

[trl]

If power supply gets overwhelmed by the output stage then I'm sure that the preamplifier will suffer as well, but I don't think we need to talk about clipping the output stage in this scenario.

However, below are the two measurements I promised earlier; not sure why the 2nd one, with speakers enabled, increased the volume, but surely increased the THD+N:

Analog input, PRE-Out only, Pure Direct, Front Right ch. - SINAD 99.7 dB

Analog input, PRE-Out + Speakers, Pure Direct, Front Right ch. - SINAD 81.5 dB​

Worth mentioning that it make zero sense to enable both Speakers and PRE-Out for the same output channel, because you'll never listen to Front speakers on the AVR and also on another set of Front speakers connected to an external amplifier. In my case, I'll take into account only the PRE-Out measurement, the one having a SINAD of 99.7 dB, given that I use an external amplifier to drive my Front speakers and the Front channels are set to PRE-Out Only and not to PRE-Out + Speakers. Enabling or disabling the remaining 5 channels is not affecting the Front channel measurement results in any way, at least not when using moderate levels and I haven't tested with higher volumes to stress out the internal power supply.

When I set the AVR for Pre-OUT Only (without speakers) the ECO Mode gets disabled, so it cannot be setup at all.

 

[peng]

If power supply gets overwhelmed by the output stage then I'm sure that the preamplifier will suffer as well, but I don't think we need to talk about clipping the output stage in this scenario.

However, below are the two measurements I promised earlier; not sure why the 2nd one, with speakers enabled, increased the volume, but surely increased the THD+N:

View attachment 342422
Analog input, PRE-Out only, Pure Direct, Front Right ch. - SINAD 99.7 dB

View attachment 342421
Analog input, PRE-Out + Speakers, Pure Direct, Front Right ch. - SINAD 81.5 dB​

Worth mentioning that it make zero sense to enable both Speakers and PRE-Out for the same output channel, because you'll never listen to Front speakers on the AVR and also on another set of Front speakers connected to an external amplifier. In my case, I'll take into account only the PRE-Out measurement, the one having a SINAD of 99.7 dB, given that I use an external amplifier to drive my Front speakers and the Front channels are set to PRE-Out Only and not to PRE-Out + Speakers. Enabling or disabling the remaining 5 channels is not affecting the Front channel measurement results in any way, at least not when using moderate levels and I haven't tested with higher volumes to stress out the internal power supply.

When I set the AVR for Pre-OUT Only (without speakers) the ECO Mode gets disabled, so it cannot be setup at all.

Thanks, but I don't think we are talking about the same thing, will try an easier way tomorrow.

 

[peng]

If power supply gets overwhelmed by the output stage then I'm sure that the preamplifier will suffer as well, but I don't think we need to talk about clipping the output stage in this scenario.

However, below are the two measurements I promised earlier; not sure why the 2nd one, with speakers enabled, increased the volume, but surely increased the THD+N:

View attachment 342422
Analog input, PRE-Out only, Pure Direct, Front Right ch. - SINAD 99.7 dB

View attachment 342421
Analog input, PRE-Out + Speakers, Pure Direct, Front Right ch. - SINAD 81.5 dB​

Worth mentioning that it make zero sense to enable both Speakers and PRE-Out for the same output channel, because you'll never listen to Front speakers on the AVR and also on another set of Front speakers connected to an external amplifier. In my case, I'll take into account only the PRE-Out measurement, the one having a SINAD of 99.7 dB, given that I use an external amplifier to drive my Front speakers and the Front channels are set to PRE-Out Only and not to PRE-Out + Speakers. Enabling or disabling the remaining 5 channels is not affecting the Front channel measurement results in any way, at least not when using moderate levels and I haven't tested with higher volumes to stress out the internal power supply.

When I set the AVR for Pre-OUT Only (without speakers) the ECO Mode gets disabled, so it cannot be setup at all.

Excellent info! Thanks again for the additional measurements, if this thing goes on sale, I may just grab one for my two channel system, then I know for sure I can use DLBC with it, albeit with just one sub because it really has only one real subout.

Your new test shows that it has very low THD+N looks great and will therefore potential perform very well as preamp/dac, at least the lower output level that is still high enough for my use.

Now back to the point I was trying to make before about preamp mode and the potential impact of ECO, in point form:

1) We are not talking about output stage clipping with speakers connected, we are talking about no speakers connected.
2) In preamp mode, the preamp/dac outputs, aka pre outs are disconnected to the power amp's input, hence called the preamp mode because it will then work as a preamp/dac only.
3) When I mentioned clipping, I referred to the normal mode, that is, not preamp mode.

Under the above 3 conditions, that is, with no speakers connected, but in normal mode, the pre outs are still connected to the power amp's inputs, so as you crank the volume, and/or crank up the input level, at some point the AVR's output stage will clip, so yes one does have to worry about it, that's why for those who worry about it, will want to purchase models that have preamp mode.

So, when you said "If power supply gets overwhelmed by the output stage then I'm sure that the preamplifier will suffer as well, but I don't think we need to talk about clipping the output stage in this scenario."

Pre out SINAD degradation at level >1.4 to 1.5 V when preamp mode is not available or available but not used:

We don't need to worry about clipping in your test scenario if you did use preamp mode, or you keep the pre out level <1.4 V, if not, then we do have to consider the clipping point. Based on all the Marantz an Denon AVRs Amir measured so far, the SR8015 is the only one that did not get affected by the power amp output stage clipping. All the other models would measure much better at up to about 1.4 to 1.5 V pre out level, and the SINAD would drop quickly, to typically about 75 dB at 2 V.

In your measurement case, if you can get SINAD that high, at pre out level >4 V, then I would assume you had the unit in preamp mode, and that's what you mean when you said "Front channels are set to PRE-Out Only and not to PRE-Out + Speakers."

Also in that case, ECO will not matter because in pre out mode it is not applicable, and as you confirmed, it gets disabled anyway.

ECO will matter if you are not in preamp mode, or as you called it, "PRE-Out + Speakers.", because in that scenario, ECO "on", or "auto" with volume above certain point, the rail voltage to drop and the power amps will clip (again, even with no speakers connected), and the increased distortions will somehow get feedback to impact of the SINAD of the pre outs.

So, from your measurements, the Cinema 70 is a very competent preamp/dac for those who use it as an AVP. Even at list price, if 7.1 is all one needs, there is no need to spend at least twice as much to go with an AVP. The only drawback is the lack of Dirac Live, that is not an issue for me because I will use it for two channel only, and already have DLBC for it.

Lastly, any chance for you to test/measure the Stereo 70? If that works just as good or better (hopefully), that it will save me $400 based on list price.