Marantz Cinema 70s AVR Review

[Nichth]

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Marantz Cinema 70s home theater Audio/Video Receiver (AVR). It was kindly drop shipped by a member and costs US $1,200.
View attachment 333466
The 70s sports the new industrial design of Marantz AV products which I very much like. It looks even more attractive in this slim package. The display is not very informative but I can see it fitting the style now better than it ever did. Back panel shows a simpler layout which again, I prefer:
View attachment 333467

Many of us want a compact setup to go with our flat panel TVs or alternatively serve as our main music and TV/video sound and this is all we need really.

I updated the 70s to latest firmware which took about 10 minutes but otherwise was effortless.

Marantz Cinema 70s DAC/Pre-out Measurements
As usual we start with pre-out to determine the fidelity of digital to analog conversion. Per testing of prior Denon/Marantz products I set the volume to 82.5 and managed to nicely get the 2 volt output using HDMI as a source: (all testing with the output set to "Pre-out")
View attachment 333468
I was really hoping to see noise+distortion as expressed in SINAD to be north of 100 dB but it was not meant to be. I did try Toslink to see if that is any better:

View attachment 333470
The "grass" in the FFT noise floor improves but SINAD remains the same. Going with what we have, the 70s lands in not so good ranking:
View attachment 333471

Sweeping the input levels shows that optimal performance is at lower voltage although you don't gain much:
View attachment 333472

Multitone is at lower level so benefits from above factor:
View attachment 333473

IMD sweep though shows that more optimizations should have been done in noise and distortion front:
View attachment 333474

For comparisons to measurements elsewhere, here is 50 Hz response:
View attachment 333475

There is no filter selection so I was worried that we would see the very slow one from previous generation Marantz products. Fortunately they have adopted a more proper one:
View attachment 333476
Out of band attenuation is very modest though which will cause pain in the wideband THD+N measurements below. Frequency response shows the appropriateness of the filter in that domain:
View attachment 333477

Here is what I talked about:
View attachment 333478

Analyzing the spectrum of a 1 kHz tone shows that the ultrasonic energy is indeed the problem:
View attachment 333576

The unit is susceptible to audio samples when it comes to jitter:
View attachment 333480

Linearity is not great although better than some other AV products:
View attachment 333481

Not a lot to celebrate here although if you look at the review of Marantz NR1510, you will see that it has much rougher results even though top numbers are close.

Marantz Cinema 70s Amplifier Measurements
When I test an amplifier, I first let it warm up at 5 watts into 2 channels of a 4 ohm load. I show this at the end usually since it usually is not eventful. That was not the case here:
View attachment 333482
I left the amp running for a bit and was very surprised when I looked and saw that jump in distortion around 2 minutes. It also has this odd behavior in that every time you send it audio, distortion is higher and then settles down after about 7 seconds. While the amp was warm I don't expect the amplifier to go into any kind of mode to protect itself with just 10 watts of output. Note that I had ECO mode turned off (double checked). Performance before this effect clicked in was already poor. Giving up another 10 dB is just a sin. Here is the same issue in the dashboard:
View attachment 333489

After a minute or two you get this:
View attachment 333490

As noted, once the AVR goes into this mode, you can't get out of it unless you power cycle the amp. Simply turned down the volume, stopping the source, etc. won't make a difference. I almost stopped here as this is just unacceptable. As a minimum it should be documented. But then I considered that the company doesn't seem to be making claims about 4 ohm ability (lowest power rating is at 6 ohm) so I decided to continue and used the better SINAD value in the rankings:
View attachment 333491

If I use the lower number, it would literally fall of the right side of the chart!

Here is an FFT of before and after warm up:
View attachment 333502

FYI I could not replicate the issue at 1 and 2 watts.

Back to the dashboard, I also tested with analog input:
View attachment 333492

Performance is essentially the same so I continued testing with that as that makes comparison to stand-alone amplifiers easier. But I did confirm that in Pure Direct mode, the input is NOT digitized:

View attachment 333493

I set the crossover to 80 Hz and there, if you don't go to Pure Direct, you not only get that crossover, but output gets limited to which indicates it is going through an ADC. Nice to see even in that condition the bandwidth is large seeing how you have output to almost 48 kHz making me think sampling rate of the ADC is 88/96 kHz.

Noise performance is not great at 5 watts but improves at full power:
View attachment 333494

Note that you lose some of this with EQ so we really need better performance.

Multiutone shows the busy grass indicating a lot of intermodulation distortion:
View attachment 333495

Same with 19+20 kHz tones:

View attachment 333497



Crosstalk could definitely be better:
View attachment 333499

We see the distortion kink in the power measurements:
View attachment 333500

Good headroom though since I am only testing two channels and there is power supply capacity for more:
View attachment 333501

Here is the 8 ohm sweep:
View attachment 333503
We beat the spec by 15%.

Sweeping frequencies doesn't impact the overall response but the "hump" behavior changes:
View attachment 333504
FYI sweeping at higher levels caused the AVR to go into protection and would not recover on its own, requiring power cycle. Gave me a scare thinking it was damaged for good!

Conclusions
On the heels of the Marantz AV10 processor review, I had my hopes high for excellent performance but that was dashed with the Cinema 70s. While there seems to be some improvement compared to prior generation, the overall picture doesn't change. DAC performance is just "OK" and amplifier rather poor. Once price goes north of $1,000 I expect better performance. The good looks are there but sadly, the rest is not.

I can't recommend the Marantz Cinema 70s. Company can and should do better.

------------
As always, questions, comments, recommendations, etc. are welcome.

Any donations are much appreciated using: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/how-to-support-audio-science-review.8150/

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Marantz Cinema 70s home theater Audio/Video Receiver (AVR). It was kindly drop shipped by a member and costs US $1,200.
View attachment 333466
The 70s sports the new industrial design of Marantz AV products which I very much like. It looks even more attractive in this slim package. The display is not very informative but I can see it fitting the style now better than it ever did. Back panel shows a simpler layout which again, I prefer:
View attachment 333467

Many of us want a compact setup to go with our flat panel TVs or alternatively serve as our main music and TV/video sound and this is all we need really.

I updated the 70s to latest firmware which took about 10 minutes but otherwise was effortless.

Marantz Cinema 70s DAC/Pre-out Measurements
As usual we start with pre-out to determine the fidelity of digital to analog conversion. Per testing of prior Denon/Marantz products I set the volume to 82.5 and managed to nicely get the 2 volt output using HDMI as a source: (all testing with the output set to "Pre-out")
View attachment 333468
I was really hoping to see noise+distortion as expressed in SINAD to be north of 100 dB but it was not meant to be. I did try Toslink to see if that is any better:

View attachment 333470
The "grass" in the FFT noise floor improves but SINAD remains the same. Going with what we have, the 70s lands in not so good ranking:
View attachment 333471

Sweeping the input levels shows that optimal performance is at lower voltage although you don't gain much:
View attachment 333472

Multitone is at lower level so benefits from above factor:
View attachment 333473

IMD sweep though shows that more optimizations should have been done in noise and distortion front:
View attachment 333474

For comparisons to measurements elsewhere, here is 50 Hz response:
View attachment 333475

There is no filter selection so I was worried that we would see the very slow one from previous generation Marantz products. Fortunately they have adopted a more proper one:
View attachment 333476
Out of band attenuation is very modest though which will cause pain in the wideband THD+N measurements below. Frequency response shows the appropriateness of the filter in that domain:
View attachment 333477

Here is what I talked about:
View attachment 333478

Analyzing the spectrum of a 1 kHz tone shows that the ultrasonic energy is indeed the problem:
View attachment 333576

The unit is susceptible to audio samples when it comes to jitter:
View attachment 333480

Linearity is not great although better than some other AV products:
View attachment 333481

Not a lot to celebrate here although if you look at the review of Marantz NR1510, you will see that it has much rougher results even though top numbers are close.

Marantz Cinema 70s Amplifier Measurements
When I test an amplifier, I first let it warm up at 5 watts into 2 channels of a 4 ohm load. I show this at the end usually since it usually is not eventful. That was not the case here:
View attachment 333482
I left the amp running for a bit and was very surprised when I looked and saw that jump in distortion around 2 minutes. It also has this odd behavior in that every time you send it audio, distortion is higher and then settles down after about 7 seconds. While the amp was warm I don't expect the amplifier to go into any kind of mode to protect itself with just 10 watts of output. Note that I had ECO mode turned off (double checked). Performance before this effect clicked in was already poor. Giving up another 10 dB is just a sin. Here is the same issue in the dashboard:
View attachment 333489

After a minute or two you get this:
View attachment 333490

As noted, once the AVR goes into this mode, you can't get out of it unless you power cycle the amp. Simply turned down the volume, stopping the source, etc. won't make a difference. I almost stopped here as this is just unacceptable. As a minimum it should be documented. But then I considered that the company doesn't seem to be making claims about 4 ohm ability (lowest power rating is at 6 ohm) so I decided to continue and used the better SINAD value in the rankings:
View attachment 333491

If I use the lower number, it would literally fall of the right side of the chart!

Here is an FFT of before and after warm up:
View attachment 333502

FYI I could not replicate the issue at 1 and 2 watts.

Back to the dashboard, I also tested with analog input:
View attachment 333492

Performance is essentially the same so I continued testing with that as that makes comparison to stand-alone amplifiers easier. But I did confirm that in Pure Direct mode, the input is NOT digitized:

View attachment 333493

I set the crossover to 80 Hz and there, if you don't go to Pure Direct, you not only get that crossover, but output gets limited to which indicates it is going through an ADC. Nice to see even in that condition the bandwidth is large seeing how you have output to almost 48 kHz making me think sampling rate of the ADC is 88/96 kHz.

Noise performance is not great at 5 watts but improves at full power:
View attachment 333494

Note that you lose some of this with EQ so we really need better performance.

Multiutone shows the busy grass indicating a lot of intermodulation distortion:
View attachment 333495

Same with 19+20 kHz tones:

View attachment 333497



Crosstalk could definitely be better:
View attachment 333499

We see the distortion kink in the power measurements:
View attachment 333500

Good headroom though since I am only testing two channels and there is power supply capacity for more:
View attachment 333501

Here is the 8 ohm sweep:
View attachment 333503
We beat the spec by 15%.

Sweeping frequencies doesn't impact the overall response but the "hump" behavior changes:
View attachment 333504
FYI sweeping at higher levels caused the AVR to go into protection and would not recover on its own, requiring power cycle. Gave me a scare thinking it was damaged for good!

Conclusions
On the heels of the Marantz AV10 processor review, I had my hopes high for excellent performance but that was dashed with the Cinema 70s. While there seems to be some improvement compared to prior generation, the overall picture doesn't change. DAC performance is just "OK" and amplifier rather poor. Once price goes north of $1,000 I expect better performance. The good looks are there but sadly, the rest is not.

I can't recommend the Marantz Cinema 70s. Company can and should do better.

------------
As always, questions, comments, recommendations, etc. are welcome.

Any donations are much appreciated using: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/how-to-support-audio-science-review.8150/

I have one of these amps, bought to replace a Pioneer SC-LX87, whose connectivity was showing its age. I use it as a dedicated preamp/processor, with the Pioneer now used solely as a power amp for the surround channels. In this mode the Cinema 7s succeeds very well indeed, with HDMI capable of passing 8k/60hz or 4k/120hz. One would be hard-pressed to find a dedicated preamp/processor of similar capability anywhere near its price point, and in this, admittedly limited, respect, Marantz may be onto a winner.

 

[EWL5]

I have one of these amps, bought to replace a Pioneer SC-LX87, whose connectivity was showing its age. I use it as a dedicated preamp/processor, with the Pioneer now used solely as a power amp for the surround channels. In this mode the Cinema 7s succeeds very well indeed, with HDMI capable of passing 8k/60hz or 4k/120hz. One would be hard-pressed to find a dedicated preamp/processor of similar capability anywhere near its price point, and in this, admittedly limited, respect, Marantz may be onto a winner.

No one is doubting the utility of a small AVR that can be used as a prepro. I think the suggested retail price is the reason for the "thumbs down"!

 

[peng]

I finally aggregated most of the data and managed to publish a rather long to read teardown here: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...rsonal-thoughts-and-a-few-measurements.50743/. Three pics couldn't get uploaded, but I might added them later on the review thread.

Seems decent electronics inside and for the price I paid I wold say it's a keeper for me, especially because I can't find a low-height AVR close to 650 EUR that has the same features.

Thank you very much for a job well done, the resolution of the photos are amazing, you've got steady hands for sure, or you have good tripod. It shows 4 pieces of the PCM5102A, that likely means they are keeping the unusual practice of implementing differential connections they adopted in the previous generations that include the DRA-800H and NR1200. I find it amazing that while they downgraded the DAC IC itself, most likely for cost reduction, yet they still invest in using differential connections that requires twice as many DAC ICs and more design work. Still, good to know they keep the differential, that in theory should result in a few dB better in SNR.

Too bad your teardown did not reveal the volume IC, though I think it is almost certain that they will continue to use the NJU72343 that have excellent specs, and seem to be still used in the flagship $7,000 AV10.

 

[trl]

Thank you very much for a job well done, the resolution of the photos are amazing, you've got steady hands for sure, or you have good tripod. It shows 4 pieces of the PCM5102A, that likely means they are keeping the unusual practice of implementing differential connections they adopted in the previous generations that include the DRA-800H and NR1200. I find it amazing that while they downgraded the DAC IC itself, most likely for cost reduction, yet they still invest in using differential connections that requires twice as many DAC ICs and more design work. Still, good to know they keep the differential, that in theory should result in a few dB better in SNR.

Too bad your teardown did not reveal the volume IC, though I think it is almost certain that they will continue to use the NJU72343 that have excellent specs, and seem to be still used in the flagship $7,000 AV10.

Thank you too @peng. Actually there are six DAC chips: 4 x PCM5102A + 2 x PCM5100A and one ADC: PCM1803A.

Sorry for not figuring out where the volume chip is located, but I didn't wanted to remove the front panel so I don't scratch the plastic around the two rotary knobs (still need the warranty). However, I'm sure you're right and NJU72343 is the volume chip inside the CINEMA 70s, so below is a pic with it's implementation from similar AV Receivers:

​

 

[Thomas_A]

No one is doubting the utility of a small AVR that can be used as a prepro. I think the suggested retail price is the reason for the "thumbs down"!

This is quite difficult topic since there has been "huge" price drop to €698 for quite some time now. Performance stays the same, but prices can drop, so I don't think there is any point to judge things by price. It will be the potential buyers judge.

What is confusing though is why the versions that Amir measure behaves so odd with respect to distortion and "ECO" function, which goes both for this AVR and the previous NR1510, while other measurements made cannot repeat this for the 70s or similar Marantz amps.. Perhaps there is something wrong with the US 120V version? Power amp performance is rather poor from what can be done today, but many will struggle to hear a difference anyway at THD < -70 dB and noise < -85 dB, as @trl measured. Marantz chose a very low idling current on the transistors (7 amps in a small enclosure...), so the critical point IMO is that its power will be limited if you use all amp sections. Having separate power amps at least for the fronts would ease the strain of the remaining amps.

The odd behaviour of the Marantz measured by @amirm will probably be unsolved though, unless someone else with a US version would measure this to see if problems can be replicated.

 

[peng]

This is quite difficult topic since there has been "huge" price drop to €698 for quite some time now. Performance stays the same, but prices can drop, so I don't think there is any point to judge things by price. It will be the potential buyers judge.

What is confusing though is why the versions that Amir measure behaves so odd with respect to distortion and "ECO" function, which goes both for this AVR and the previous NR1510, while other measurements made cannot repeat this for the 70s or similar Marantz amps.. Perhaps there is something wrong with the US 120V version? Power amp performance is rather poor from what can be done today, but many will struggle to hear a difference anyway at THD < -70 dB and noise < -85 dB, as @trl measured. Marantz chose a very low idling current on the transistors (7 amps in a small enclosure...), so the critical point IMO is that its power will be limited if you use all amp sections. Having separate power amps at least for the fronts would ease the strain of the remaining amps.

The odd behaviour of the Marantz measured by @amirm will probably be unsolved though, unless someone else with a US version would measure this to see if problems can be replicated.

It could be a bug with the ECO control part, if it is, it would likely be fixed via FW. If used as prepro, I don't see much risk, other than I wouldn't pay premium for Marantz when the Denon AVR-X3800H clearly is a much better value, if the look and the size is not an issue.

 

[Thomas_A]

It could be a bug with the ECO control part, if it is, it would likely be fixed via FW. If used as prepro, I don't see much risk, other than I wouldn't pay premium for Marantz when the Denon AVR-X3800H clearly is a much better value, if the look and the size is not an issue.

If it is a bug, Marantz should have updated FW by now?

"Value" is relative though, the X3800H is a bigger 9.4 AVR at €1300 vs. the Marantz 7.2 at €698. SINAD 86-87 on pre out vs SINAD 92-94. A closer rival would be the C50 model. Depends on your needs (channels, power, size...).

 

[LCListener]

It could be a bug with the ECO control part, if it is, it would likely be fixed via FW. If used as prepro, I don't see much risk, other than I wouldn't pay premium for Marantz when the Denon AVR-X3800H clearly is a much better value, if the look and the size is not an issue.

“…if the look and size is not an issue” is the whole point of this receiver. If size is not a constraint and aesthetics aren’t that important there are tons of AVRs to choose from.

I think Marantz went a little overboard with trying to capture the uniqueness of the unit in their MSRP, but it is unique. Our living room layout and furniture required a slimline unit. This one looks great, performs well standalone, and with its pre-outs gives me lots of options to hide an amplifier if I want more and cleaner power.

 

[peng]

If it is a bug, Marantz should have updated FW by now?

"Value" is relative though, the X3800H is a bigger 9.4 AVR at €1300 vs. the Marantz 7.2 at €698. SINAD 86-87 on pre out vs SINAD 92-94. A closer rival would be the C50 model. Depends on your needs (channels, power, size...).

I missed the point that the C70 is going for under Euro 700, here in Canada it's $1,600, and $1,200 in the USA, almost same price price as the Denon X3800H.

If I can get the C70 for under C$900, I would grab one in a hurry. In Europe, Marantz seems like a real alternative to Denon.

 

[trl]

It's 649 EUR on amazon.de right now, a good price/perf. ratio if size and look matters for the customer.

 

[EWL5]

I missed the point that the C70 is going for under Euro 700, here in Canada it's $1,600, and $1,200 in the USA, almost same price price as the Denon X3800H.

If I can get the C70 for under C$900, I would grab one in a hurry. In Europe, Marantz seems like a real alternative to Denon.

Apparently in North America, "nice things" cost more!

 

[trl]

Usually is vice-versa on most electronics, so we should probably expect this AVR to decrease in price soon in US as well.

 

[ziggurcat]

From a purely performance perspective, how good is the Cinema 70s when it's being used solely as an AVP? I get that this unit has some issues, but how many of those problems are rendered moot in an AVP use case? I am looking to maybe get one of these at some point as I move to "downsize" my system.

I would also consider the Stereo 70s, but it does not have any room correction, and I'm not sure how convoluted it would be to implement. The C70s only having MultEQ isn't that great, either (compared to MultEQ XT32 in my SR6014), but I am aware of some correction techniques from YouTuber OCA that probably makes those shortcomings a non-issue.

I missed the point that the C70 is going for under Euro 700, here in Canada it's $1,600, and $1,200 in the USA, almost same price price as the Denon X3800H.

If I can get the C70 for under C$900, I would grab one in a hurry. In Europe, Marantz seems like a real alternative to Denon.

The X3800H, on average, is $2250 + tax in Canada so I would personally not call that "almost the same price." There's a place that has the C70 available as a "B-Stock" item for right around $1k CAD, but it's perpetually out of stock and they never know when they're getting more.

 

[peng]

The X3800H, on average, is $2250 + tax in Canada so I would personally not call that "almost the same price." There's a place that has the C70 available as a "B-Stock" item for right around $1k CAD, but it's perpetually out of stock and they never know when they're getting more.

Fair enough, sales prices change regularly so it is hard to compare. If we go by list prices on manufacture websites then:

Canada
Cinema 70: $1,600
AVR-X3800H: $2,249

USA
Cinema 70: $1,200
AVR-X3800H: $1,699

Only a few years ago, I was able to get the Marantz SR7012 or SR7013 for less than the Denon AVR-X4400H and X4500H from Bestbuy or Amazon.ca, but thanks for the last several years when many youtubers including some popular professional reviewers bs about how Marantz had better stuff (true to a point, very small point) in them that justifed the premium, the gap between their comparable products are now more significant, unlike in Europe and Asia.

Base on trend, I think there is a much better chance for the AVR-X3800H to go down to around C$1,600 but it would likely take a long time for the C70 to reach the below $1,500 mark. That's why I said if it goes below $1,000, or C$1,300, I would grab on in a hurry.

By the way, I agree the fair comparison to the Denon is the Cinema 50, but that thing has been listed at $3,299-$3,300 steady for a long time now, really ridiculous, vs Denon's. @Thomas_A , how much can you guys get the Cinema 50 for in Sweden, or somewhere in Europe, France, Germany etc.?

 

[Thomas_A]

Fair enough, sales prices change regularly so it is hard to compare. If we go by list prices on manufacture websites then:

Canada
Cinema 70: $1,600
AVR-X3800H: $2,249

USA
Cinema 70: $1,200
AVR-X3800H: $1,699

Only a few years ago, I was able to get the Marantz SR7012 or SR7013 for less than the Denon AVR-X4400H and X4500H from Bestbuy or Amazon.ca, but thanks for the last several years when many youtubers including some popular professional reviewers bs about how Marantz had better stuff (true to a point, very small point) in them that justifed the premium, the gap between their comparable products are now more significant, unlike in Europe and Asia.

Base on trend, I think there is a much better chance for the AVR-X3800H to go down to around C$1,600 but it would likely take a long time for the C70 to reach the below $1,500 mark. That's why I said if it goes below $1,000, or C$1,300, I would grab on in a hurry.

By the way, I agree the fair comparison to the Denon is the Cinema 50, but that thing has been listed at $3,299-$3,300 steady for a long time now, really ridiculous, vs Denon's. @Thomas_A , how much can you guys get the Cinema 50 for in Sweden, or somewhere in Europe, France, Germany etc.?

I’ve seen prices of the C50 of around €1350. The X3800H around €1300.

 

[peng]

I’ve seen prices of the C50 of around €1350. The X3800H around €1300.

Wow, thanks! I assume those are street prices that could vary quite a bit day by day, still, too bad Sweden probably won't take immigrants lol..

By the way, the Cinema 70 may be finally getting one competitor soon:

Anthem 5.1CH MRX SLM AV Receiver Fits Behind Your Television

Anthem’s new MRX SLM ($1,299) takes the “small size, big sound” concept to extremes. This remarkably slim AVR solution promises to bring Anthem’s superb audio performance while fitting behind your display.

www.audioholics.com

 

[jaakkopetteri]

I’ve seen prices of the C50 of around €1350. The X3800H around €1300.

The X3800h was on sale for around 850€ for quite a while and you can still find them under 1000€

By the way, the Cinema 70 may be finally getting one competitor soon:

No pre-outs though

 

[9800pro]

Fair enough, sales prices change regularly so it is hard to compare. If we go by list prices on manufacture websites then:

Canada
Cinema 70: $1,600
AVR-X3800H: $2,249

USA
Cinema 70: $1,200
AVR-X3800H: $1,699

Only a few years ago, I was able to get the Marantz SR7012 or SR7013 for less than the Denon AVR-X4400H and X4500H from Bestbuy or Amazon.ca, but thanks for the last several years when many youtubers including some popular professional reviewers bs about how Marantz had better stuff (true to a point, very small point) in them that justifed the premium, the gap between their comparable products are now more significant, unlike in Europe and Asia.

Base on trend, I think there is a much better chance for the AVR-X3800H to go down to around C$1,600 but it would likely take a long time for the C70 to reach the below $1,500 mark. That's why I said if it goes below $1,000, or C$1,300, I would grab on in a hurry.

By the way, I agree the fair comparison to the Denon is the Cinema 50, but that thing has been listed at $3,299-$3,300 steady for a long time now, really ridiculous, vs Denon's. @Thomas_A , how much can you guys get the Cinema 50 for in Sweden, or somewhere in Europe, France, Germany etc.?

Here in Croatia (Europe) X2800H is 659€, X3800H is 1249€, X4800H is 1390€.
Cinema 70 is 699€, 60 is 890€, 50 is 1590€, 40 is 2340€.
All prices are with taxes.

 

[peng]

The X3800h was on sale for around 850€ for quite a while and you can still find them under 1000€

No pre-outs though

In that case it will be no use to me. Thanks for noticing that.

 

[EWL5]

I’ve seen prices of the C50 of around €1350. The X3800H around €1300.

Here in Croatia (Europe) X2800H is 659€, X3800H is 1249€, X4800H is 1390€.
Cinema 70 is 699€, 60 is 890€, 50 is 1590€, 40 is 2340€.
All prices are with taxes.

Jedi mind tricks less likely to work in most of Europe, apparently!