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Marantz Cinema 50 AVR Review

techsamurai

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SoundAndVision reviewed the Cinema 50 and it's an extremely positive review. I don't understand how value is not taken into context in the review.

They reviewed the 6014 in Oct 2019 and it cost $1,500. The Cinema is a 6016 and it costs $2,500 and probably sounds identical to the 6014.

An increase of $1,000 for a $1,500 product is insane.
 

impedance72

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SoundAndVision reviewed the Cinema 50 and it's an extremely positive review. I don't understand how value is not taken into context in the review.

They reviewed the 6014 in Oct 2019 and it cost $1,500. The Cinema is a 6016 and it costs $2,500 and probably sounds identical to the 6014.

An increase of $1,000 for a $1,500 product is insane.
In effect it is. For value the reviewer gave it only 3.5/5 stars. I think reviews should be based on objective and subjective test results regardless of the price of the component. However, the author of the review should also give his opinion as to the price/performance-features ratio as S&V has done. Based on S&V reviews I have seen over the years, I would say any value rating less than 3.5 stars indicates the product price is higher than performance-features would indicate.
 

techsamurai

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In effect it is. For value the reviewer gave it only 3.5/5 stars. I think reviews should be based on objective and subjective test results regardless of the price of the component. However, the author of the review should also give his opinion as to the price/performance-features ratio as S&V has done. Based on S&V reviews I have seen over the years, I would say any value rating less than 3.5 stars indicates the product price is higher than performance-features would indicate.

Thank you for pointing that out - I never looked at that as it wasn't available before I suspect :)

However, that needs to be in the review and in the verdict imho. Also, the Cinema 50 got 5 stars vs the 6014 4.5 in the performance and I'd like to know where it found the extra 1/2 star. What has changed other than the name that will elevate it to 5 stars?

Price is very important because a product's features are always in the context of its price. If the Cinema 50 cost $5,000, I'd expect its performance to drop from 5 to 3 (even if it performed perfectly for a 6000 series).
 

Carycinema

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Hi Carycinema, was the TX-RZ50 sound better than the Cinema50? And didn't you try to at least try / compare them both with only their built-in amplifiers? Without your power amplifier. I'm also more inclined towards Onkyo/Pioneer than D/M.
To me Yes absolutely, as far as sound goes. It had a very open, dynamic and detailed sound and just sounded right to me. The Marantz sleight veil and soft dynamics left me wanting more. I could see though someone loving it's sound because you can play it really loud without fatigue and all speakers blend seamless. Unfortunately the Onkyo did not play well with my PS Audio BHK 250 amp and kept tripping it into protection mode. I tried 2 of them before I gave up. I was very upset about it because I really loved the sound. The Onkyo sounded similar to my Cary Cinema 5 surround processor which sounds awesome.
 

Carycinema

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To me Yes absolutely, as far as sound goes. It had a very open, dynamic and detailed sound and just sounded right to me. The Marantz sleight veil and soft dynamics left me wanting more. I could see though someone loving it's sound because you can play it really loud without fatigue and all speakers blend seamless. Unfortunately the Onkyo did not play well with my PS Audio BHK 250 amp and kept tripping it into protection mode. I tried 2 of them before I gave up. I was very upset about it because I really loved the sound. The Onkyo sounded similar to my Cary Cinema 5 surround processor which sounds awesome.
Sorry I mean Cinema 12 surroundprocessor. The Cinema 5 is my other amp.
 

Carycinema

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SoundAndVision reviewed the Cinema 50 and it's an extremely positive review. I don't understand how value is not taken into context in the review.

They reviewed the 6014 in Oct 2019 and it cost $1,500. The Cinema is a 6016 and it costs $2,500 and probably sounds identical to the 6014.

An increase of $1,000 for a $1,500 product is insane.
Of course it's extremely positive. Marantz/Sound United will black list them if they say anything negative..lol They are not going to mention you pay more but go backwards as far as how it will measure and possibly sound. But hey! the look was changed and some more added features, that should make up for it. I don't know about anybody else but I am listening to my AVR not staring at it during a movie or playing music.
 
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rexian

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Why, if it wasn't said, and from what I can see, not even implied that one was above the other in audio quality? Why make things up?
I did not make it up as I shared the comment that implied it. Here it is again -
Based on specs and measurements, the Cinema 40 and x4800h are the equivalents.
The above might turn out to be true when Cinema 40 / X4800H have been tested here but until then it's not a fact in any way. And then you say this -

I have not seen any measurements of the 4800 either, but that's immaterial. Are you saying if there are measurements then you will be able to say whether the C50, or C40 should be the one compared to the X4800H? I hope not!!
To me it wasn't immaterial that you just contradicted the previous statement. IMO D+M had a reason to price C50 clearly above X3800H and gave some extras to X4800H while being at the same price. No for-profit company would like to see their one product cannibalizing another. Is it just snake oil? We don't know yet.

Of course people compare feature and specs, that's normal. Measurements are great, I want to see more measurements all the time, but in general people in the process of comparative shopping do, and often have to rely on just features and specs because measurements are no readily available for all models. Surely you stand this right?
People always compare based on specs and there is nothing wrong. It's their money anyway. The sole reason I am here in this forum, and I suspect many of the other visitors are as well, is that measurements are available to validate / refute some of the manufacturers' claims. Amir does not test every spec but for my needs (whether I'd benefit from a decent external amp for the fronts or not), his tests are very helpful.

That's why there are websites that provide easy ways to compare different models. The popular Zkelectronics:
This site has been linked often on forum, not me though, this is the first time I link it, just for you, so you know a popular comparing tool that helps the shopper may not always include measurements.:) Again, I do think measurements are important, but there is nothing wrong to say if a Marantz fan wants to try a Denon this time, they should go from a SR7015 to a Denon AVR-X3600H because the X3600H has significantly better SINAD. I would absolutely suggest such person to go with the AVR-X4700H.
Or, if you insist on using measurements to determine which Marantz correspond to which Denon, then in year 2017 through 2021, you won't be able to find on, because all of the Marantz models measured significantly poorer than Denon's. Does that make any sense, I think not, and I think you may even agree, when I put it his way.
That website is okay to see 2 products side by side but I wouldn't use it to make a final purchase decision. Here is a link comparing RZ50 with C40 - RZ50 scored better in the amp section and we know how it fared in Amir's test. All I was saying is C50 vs X4800H comparison is fair until measurements are available and I stand by it.

And, yes, I heard that the Cinema 40 is actually closer to the SR8015 now and is made in Japan,
This came from Marantz rep so until proven wrong there is little reason to doubt it.

but the X4800H, now also made in Japan, may also be closer to the X6700H than the X4700H now. So the C40 and the X4800H are still going to be comparable.
Now this is speculation. I'll be happy if it turns out to be true but it is not known yet.

...
He stated in that post:

Cinema 50......Replaces SR6015.....Expected Q4 2022

Cinema 40......Replaces SR7015.....Expected Q3 2023

Well, I happen to agree with those statements.
This doesn't make Cinema 40 or 50 equivalent of X4800H. I'll not repeat what I said elsewhere but this post from AVinsider doesn't contradict or support what I have said in any way.

Again, let me repeat just one more time, when I, or others compare "equivalent" or if you don't like that term, fine, let's just say "comparable" models, we tend to compare feature set and audio specifications, and are not necessarily (not me anyway) talking about sound quality, or measurements (unless they are available). Sound quality, when referring to midrange AVRs such as these $2,000 to $4,000 AVRs are subjective by nature, people can only give their own opinion based on their own perception in their listening environments. I will not tell you, or anyone that certain Denon models are "above" certain Marantz models in sound quality.
I don't really have a problem with anyone comparing any 2 models - I was the one getting "corrected" for comparing Cinema 50 with X4800H on audio processing. People have their reasons to compare - someone just looking for a 9.4 receiver within the budget you mentioned, C50 will be there on the list but not X3800H. How someone perceives an AVR in their room with a random set of speakers is completely subjective but many aspects of sound quality can be objectively measured and we can say one preamp or amp is more accurate (which in my opinion means "higher") than another - whether the former would sound "better" to a person is completely subjective though. A lot of people are very happy with their old Bose Acoustimass speakers.

Appreciated, and I have sincerely tried my best and have now responded to you post point by point. Hopefully it helps clearing things up a little, though so far it hasn't been working all that well. If not, I have to move on anyway, more fun watching movies and enjoying music.
Agree, this conversation is no longer productive - as many of the points are subjective, we just have to agree to disagree. Thanks for the conversation.
 

ArturoKiwi

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Who's speculating "X4800H clearly above Cinema 50 in audio quality", can you please link the source so I can read the whole thing to avoid taking it out of context? I fully agree with you that any such claim (if in fact stating that without qualitifications/caveats) would be sX4800H clearly above Cinema 50 in audio qualitypeculative and meaningless if based on actual subjective measurements).


What exactly will be revealed, you mean Amir will do a tear down of both to compare what's inside and/or read the service manuals? If not, how is Amir going to tell us whether the X4800H should be compared to the C50 or C40.

[truncate]


If you take the time to read those follow up posts you will understand why there were some minor difference. Regardless, when comparing such results measured by two different persons, on different test benches using different instruments, you can really say a few dB difference in one or two tests can tell you more than it does, as ban25 said "Or it's just measurement variation between two different test benches and reviewers..."

Nice reading the Cinema 50 review, but I didn't stop there and I read the Pioneer VSX-LX505 review too.
If you compare the review of the LX505 from SoundandVision and the Amirm's one, then you'll look in different way the Soundand Vision Cinema 50's review :D
 

techsamurai

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Nice reading the Cinema 50 review, but I didn't stop there and I read the Pioneer VSX-LX505 review too.
If you compare the review of the LX505 from SoundandVision and the Amirm's one, then you'll look in different way the Soundand Vision Cinema 50's review :D

Actually for Pioneer he played SACD and ran the speakers without a subwoofer to make the amps work. I don't know what loads he used or how difficult to drive his speakers may be but it doesn't seem like he ran into the clipping issue that the RZ50 and 505 also exhibited. I know it's horrible if it happens but if there are no reports of it happening in real use, it may be an alternative when you compare the value. If the Denon 4800h and Marantz Cinema 50 were priced in the same category ($1,600-$1,800) then I'd be more critical of Pioneer and Onkyo.

What I don't understand is why the 505 received 4 stars in the performance compared to the Cinema 50 when the Cinema 50 is over 60% more expensive and the general review of sound quality sounded the same to me when reading both reviews. Both were excellent. I also am not sure why the 505 received 4 stars in the value vs 3.5 for the Cinema 50.

By the way, does Amir do 5 and 7 continuous and PSweep tests or are all tests 2 channels? It's so hard to tell :)
 

peng

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Nice reading the Cinema 50 review, but I didn't stop there and I read the Pioneer VSX-LX505 review too.
If you compare the review of the LX505 from SoundandVision and the Amirm's one, then you'll look in different way the Soundand Vision Cinema 50's review :D

No I highly doubt that. For me, it doesn't matter because there is no logic in believing and/or influenced by such subjective views. Yes, I would make exceptions from time to time for specific reasons, but in general, there are always going to be people who will hear better sound quality from one, while others will say the opposite. Who are you going to believe? I think it usually one would naturally believe or influenced more by the reviewers if the one heard similar things before from other more popular/prolific reviewers, and/or have read marketing material that one thought make sense to him/her. I believe in facts and science much more than any (or almost any) subjective reviews. We know ears and brains get influenced/bias easily, don't we?

Even if the subjective reviewers did hear what they claimed to be better sound or musical sound, what exactly does that mean? You really don't know if you would feel the same, people don't always prefer the same thing anyway.

Those who actually designed, tuned, build the products, always have their preference too as they are also humans, that's why their goals should be, and likely are, to aim for neutrality, and let the users use tone control, EQ, RC to suit their taste if they want to. To design for a certain "sound signature", may please some, while losing other potential buyers (that's if such alleged sound quality is easily audible). It would be difficult to predict which kind of sound signature will be most popular as there are just too many permutations of frequency response curve, distortion profile, dynamic response etc., such an approach won't likely be good for business in the long term. Marantz has been exceptionally successful in marketing, but even them don't sell anywhere near Denon and Yamaha's, who are not overly aggressive in selling their own "claimed sound signatures". I actually like their products, and I owned 5 Marantz products (AVPs, preamps, power amps) in recent years, and still own 3. As Amir said in an video interview, I don't remember his exact wording, but it was something about telling the interviewer that the Marantz units he measured did not have enough distortions for them to have the sound signature that people talked about, will try to find that video for you so you can hear his exact words.

Here is one of those videos that I made exception for, and watched it from beginning to end. The one I would trust his opinion more is Erin, yet he never said a thing:( in this video. The other 3 seemed too busy trying to agree with each other (groupthink?), and didn't even know the fact that the Denon and Marantz being compared actually have the same 13 channel processing, they thought Denon can do 15 vs Marantz 13, totally false! The fact is, both can process 13 only, or 15 if you count the two independent subouts. Now those 4 gentleman, with due respect, are the better one, especially Erin, who is more of an objective kind of reviewer anyway. At least in this video, they, the subjectivist leaning bunch, did say they thought in a blind test it would be tough to tell a difference between the two devices, despite the HDAM thing being a potential reason mentioned for audible difference.

I think I have read enough reviews on the C50 and the LX505 including the soundandvision one, now may be you can watch a couple of videos and see if anything might change your mind a little.;)


By the way, found the video in which Amir mentioned his conversation with Marantz about the HDAM/Marantz sound, it was very easy to find some reasons.

For his exact words, fast forward to the 7 minute mark:

 

techsamurai

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Just for kicks, go on the Marantz's website and check out the video of the silver Cinema 50 which is not sold in the US :) What is the marketing department thinking? Never show what all your clients in that country cannot have.

Also check out the silver version on top of 150 inch floating cabinet with no speakers at all - a theme that is common in all their pictures. Are they recommending that we use the Cinema 50 without any speakers? That would certainly extend the unit's life and reduce failures :)

Also, in case you haven't noticed it, the so-called bargain Cinema 60 doesn't have the pop-down panel that the Cinema 50 has to hide the buttons. They seriously bumped the price of the 5000 series to $1,800 and didn't even bother adding a pop-down panel. Between that and the DAC, there is a serious cause for concern for the quality of the electronics that go into the box. If they are skimping on the DAC and the fascia using plastic or not adding a pop-etc, what about the all-crucial HDMI board? We should probably check what it's made of and what type of electronics they use. There could be a way they can save 20 cents and reduces the quality or longevity by 50%, in which case we're getting the cheap parts.
 

Ncesar

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Indeed, or purchase an Anthem receiver and get the latest ARC Genesis included, along with a quality microphone, stand and usually responsive Anthem support. Just sayin..
The Anthem MRX 540 have Dirac Included? Is on sale now in EU.
 

GXAlan

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And what Anthem have Dirac included, or we have to pay for the license also?

The smiley face is because Anthem has their own flavor or room correction technology --> Arc Genesis. That is included.
 

Rockman2

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No I highly doubt that. For me, it doesn't matter because there is no logic in believing and/or influenced by such subjective views. Yes, I would make exceptions from time to time for specific reasons, but in general, there are always going to be people who will hear better sound quality from one, while others will say the opposite. Who are you going to believe? I think it usually one would naturally believe or influenced more by the reviewers if the one heard similar things before from other more popular/prolific reviewers, and/or have read marketing material that one thought make sense to him/her. I believe in facts and science much more than any (or almost any) subjective reviews. We know ears and brains get influenced/bias easily, don't we?

Even if the subjective reviewers did hear what they claimed to be better sound or musical sound, what exactly does that mean? You really don't know if you would feel the same, people don't always prefer the same thing anyway.

Those who actually designed, tuned, build the products, always have their preference too as they are also humans, that's why their goals should be, and likely are, to aim for neutrality, and let the users use tone control, EQ, RC to suit their taste if they want to. To design for a certain "sound signature", may please some, while losing other potential buyers (that's if such alleged sound quality is easily audible). It would be difficult to predict which kind of sound signature will be most popular as there are just too many permutations of frequency response curve, distortion profile, dynamic response etc., such an approach won't likely be good for business in the long term. Marantz has been exceptionally successful in marketing, but even them don't sell anywhere near Denon and Yamaha's, who are not overly aggressive in selling their own "claimed sound signatures". I actually like their products, and I owned 5 Marantz products (AVPs, preamps, power amps) in recent years, and still own 3. As Amir said in an video interview, I don't remember his exact wording, but it was something about telling the interviewer that the Marantz units he measured did not have enough distortions for them to have the sound signature that people talked about, will try to find that video for you so you can hear his exact words.

Here is one of those videos that I made exception for, and watched it from beginning to end. The one I would trust his opinion more is Erin, yet he never said a thing:( in this video. The other 3 seemed too busy trying to agree with each other (groupthink?), and didn't even know the fact that the Denon and Marantz being compared actually have the same 13 channel processing, they thought Denon can do 15 vs Marantz 13, totally false! The fact is, both can process 13 only, or 15 if you count the two independent subouts. Now those 4 gentleman, with due respect, are the better one, especially Erin, who is more of an objective kind of reviewer anyway. At least in this video, they, the subjectivist leaning bunch, did say they thought in a blind test it would be tough to tell a difference between the two devices, despite the HDAM thing being a potential reason mentioned for audible difference.

I think I have read enough reviews on the C50 and the LX505 including the soundandvision one, now may be you can watch a couple of videos and see if anything might change your mind a little.;)


By the way, found the video in which Amir mentioned his conversation with Marantz about the HDAM/Marantz sound, it was very easy to find some reasons.

For his exact words, fast forward to the 7 minute mark:

Too Funny I watched the vid the the 4 guy's and Erin was silent. I thought that was really weird. He was probably the most knowledgeable.
 

18000rpm

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I have been using my PC as my processor for over 10 years, using the Asus Xonar Essence STX II. It works great and the only thing missing is Dolby Atmos/DTS-X.

I'm thinking of getting the Cinema 50 but the 88dB SINAD concerns me. The STX II (lower end version of my card) measured 97dB SINAD on this site. Would it be a noticeable downgrade in sound quality? I'm 50/50 music/movies.

The amp section is not so important to me as I have a Bryston 4B SST for my fronts, although the Marantz will replace my Emotiva for the surrounds, plus the height speakers.

A few other questions:
1. I assume the Marantz can support 4.1.2 channels since I don't have a center speaker.
2. Can I freely assign amp channels for bi-amping my surround speakers?
3. Is it possible to assign one of the amps for a subwoofer channel so I can power my tactile transducer?
4. Does it support 3D Blu-ray?
 
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peng

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I have been using my PC as my processor for over 10 years, using the Asus Xonar Essence STX II. It works great and the only thing missing is Dolby Atmos/DTS-X.

I'm thinking of getting the Cinema 50 but the 88dB SINAD concerns me. The STX II (lower end version of my card) measured 97dB SINAD on this site. Would it be a noticeable downgrade in sound quality? I'm 50/50 music/movies.

The amp section is not so important to me as I have a Bryston 4B SST for my fronts, although the Marantz will replace my Emotiva for the surrounds, plus the height speakers.

A few other questions:
1. I assume the Marantz can support 4.1.2 channels since I don't have a center speaker.
2. Can I freely assign amp channels for bi-amping my surround speakers?
3. Is it possible to assign one of the amps for a subwoofer channel so I can power my tactile transducer?
4. Does it support 3D Blu-ray?

If high SINAD is important to you then the only choice from the 2023 models is the Denon A1H.

You can biamp, but not sure what you mean be "freely biamp".

Never heard of assigning amp to a subwoofer so I would say no but you should check the owner's manual.

In North America the price gap between the C50 and the x3800h is ridiculously huge compared that in Europe. That may not be a consideration for you, just fyi only in case you are not aware.
 
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