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Thanks. Much appreciated.
That's why I'd like to see these measurements on all amplifiers and receivers. We'd have a better idea what to expect from the product.It is precisely such possible real-life situations that say something about the performance. However, I do not believe that this AVR will still performs well at 4ohm/5ch. You can already see deviations from the ideal with one channel driven at 4ohm
You are welcome, and by the way, if you are still a little disappointed with the lower SINAD Amir measured vs the C40 and X4800H, keep in mind sometime things could happen during measurements that might affect the numbers such as noise introduced somehow. Amir even measured that a few times and he had to do something with the wiring before obtaining better numbers. It is not impossible that something like that happened in his measurements of the X3800H.Thanks. Much appreciated.
Even so, I can't get rid of my doubts as to why he changed the measurement methodology for the 4800 compared to the 3800. And why for the C40 he used a better result in the tables via optics and not HDMI as with the 3800.
It should as HDMI is certainly the most common source. The "issue" if you call it is that I use my computer as HDMI source. Everyone else uses an HDMI module in the AP analyzer. From past interactions, it seems that the AP generates a cleaner HDMI signal (as it should). Is a standard HDMI source (BD player) as clean as the AP HDMI module or my PC? I don't know. I need to measure that at some point.
Meanwhile I asked AP how much their new HDMI module costs. I think they said $7,000! And it won't fit my version of the APx555 to boot. So I can't do any comparisons.
As a result of all of this, I am giving the benefit of doubt that HDMI should be as clean as Toslink and go with that. Yes, I keep bending the rules for AV products. What can I say.
I compared Toslink to HDMI and the results were the same so post the HDMI ones. The level of noise coming out of HDMI on my PC is variable and when I tested the AVM90, it was on good behavior.
Moderator doesn't want us to derail too much
I actually find something and I don't think our mod would have issue with this as it is also a review, by a dealer in Taiwan:
If you follow the link you can get it translated and read the whole review. The information looks credible as they appear to have done a teardown so they could see what's used in it, but still not 100%. That's the best I can find so far, it looks like unlike Denon, this time Marantz seem to keep the details of the Cinema series secret, yet they are not shy to tell you a lot more details of their flagship AV10.
Marantz Cinema 40 9.4聲道環繞擴大機評測:日本白河工廠製造,影音都是最頂級的享受!
Marantz Cinema系列環擴一共推出了四個型號,分別為Cinema 70’s、Cinema 60、Cinema 50和Cinema 40,數字越少等級越高,我們之前已經介紹過前面三款,這次要介紹旗艦的Cinema 40。這款環擴來頭可不小,因為它是Cinema系列中唯一一款在Marantz日本白河工廠生產,雖然在規格上與Cinema 50看似大致相同,但Cinema 40無論是做 ...www-audionet-com-tw.translate.goog
Yes! This is spot on because I played the 3800 and I posted in that review where I thought I was getting distortion at that same decibel range on the internal compared to my 4400h where I never heard it. I was trying to show the difference between the dacs and also shows exactly how close Amir's measurements are. Thanks again. I really learned a lot reading these threads. You guys really know your stuff! I need to send Amir a Christmas donation.You are welcome, and by the way, if you are still a little disappointed with the lower SINAD Amir measured vs the C40 and X4800H, keep in mind sometime things could happen during measurements that might affect the numbers such as noise introduced somehow. Amir even measured that a few times and he had to do something with the wiring before obtaining better numbers. It is not impossible that something like that happened in his measurements of the X3800H.
The fact is too, his measurements typically lined up well when compared with D+M's own internal ones. In the case of the X3800H, Denon's own measurements as show in the Masimo video shows it did reach 94 dB SINAD at 2 V, and clipped at about 3.75 V:
In non preamp mode, SINAD obviously dropped at about 1.4 V, same as what Amir typically found, but it really didn't actually clip until close to 4 V as you can see in their graph. They labelled it as clipping level at 1.41 V just to line up with Amir's, based on the point when distortions rise rapidly, but it did settle at about 0.02% THD+N, that is 74 dB SINAD until it really clipped at pass 3 V, about 3.5 V if you can see it clear enough. Also noticed that Denon labelled that as P.AMP (i.e. power amp) clipping level, that is more correct because at that point the power amp clipped, thereby introducing higher distortion measured on the pre out.
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Not completely on topic for this review; but I haven't seen measurements of your mains voltages while testing amplifiers? Would this not be of relevance to performance? Especially in those cases where the tested amplifier seems to not live up the specified power output.This is a review and detailed measurements of the Marantz Cinema 40 9.4 channel AV Receiver (AVR). It is on kind loan from a member and costs US $3,500.
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As is typical in this class, you get a very large box. At least the look is unique and to my liking. The port hole display while limiting fits in the style.
Back panel as usual has hundreds of connections:
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While I liked the remote on Marantz AV 10 I reviewed recently, in this instance had rather sticking and hard to use 4-way arrow buttons. I updated the unit to latest firmware and performed a factory reset for testing.
Marantz Cinema 40 DAC Measurements
I set the pre-outs to be only that (not driving speakers) and tested the left front and right front channels using HDMI input:
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Usually I don't see a difference in "Pure Direct" mode here but as noted, we earned 2 dB for turning off some subsystems in the receiver. We gained more though by using Toslink:
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Giving the benefit of doubt and going with this value of SINAD (ratio of noise+distortion), we get a reasonable ranking for an AV product:
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Above is at volume level of 82.5 which on all Denon/Marantz products generates nominal 2 volts out. We can test at other levels first by sweeping the digital input level:
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As you see, we already have the optimal output at 2 volts/volume of 82.5. As you crank up the volume, noise level increases so performance drops (green). You do get more output though if you need that at the expense of distortion. At 3.6 volt though, the preamp clips so best to not go above that.
We can alternatively keep the input at full digital level but crank up the volume 30 dB starting at volume level 58 dB going up to 88 dB:
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I have put a cursor at 2 volt/82.5 volume level. All the way on the left is volume level of 58 dB which has a SINAD of 84.5 (13 dB loss relative to 2 volts out).
Would have been nice to land in green though. Form here on, I used Toslink unless noted otherwise. Noise performance is good for AV class:
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IMD is not great as DACs are concerned but in the context of AV products, we bend the rules and call it good:
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Multitone response is where the rest of the measurements are:
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50 Hz response is the same.
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AV products tend to generate suboptimal linearity but results are fairly good for the class:
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We have a pronounced jitter source at 6 kHz that gets worse with HDMI:
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I am relieved that Marantz now has a proper filter but its attenuation needs to be improved:
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Frequency response is flat which we didn't have in previous generations:
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The less than ideal filter impacts wideband THD+N measurements:
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We can see that clearly by performing a wideband spectrum analysis of 1 kHz:
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The tall spikes are the reason the previous graph looks so poor. Fortunately they are not audible.
Marantz Cinema 40 Amplifier Measurements
Let's start with the same Toslink input and see what we get at 5 watts:
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That is decent performance which improves a bit with analog input:
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Average for all amplifiers tested is in low 80s so the Cinema 40 is doing good here:
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And oh, no warm up issues as we saw in Cinema 70s AVR review:
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Noise performance is very good:
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Frequency response is wide and unimpeded with analog input:
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Crosstalk is disappointing:
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Same for 19 and 20 kHz tones:
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That's because distortion sharply rises at high frequencies:
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Which we can confirm in our power vs frequency sweeps:
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We do have good bit of power with overall good performance:
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Some kind of feedback loop is keeping distortion constant but allows it to rise early in the sweep.
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We naturally have some headroom as the power supply has to feed more than the two channels we test:
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Marantz Cinema 40 Reactive Load Testing
For desert, we have some stress testing by varying the phase from -60 to +60 with resistance of 8 down to 2 ohm:
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Ideal amp would keep its output voltage constant no matter what the load. Here we some drooping but good robustness, handling down to 2 ohm even though it is rated at 6 ohm! Even though voltage drops as impedance decreases, we still pump out a lot of power:
View attachment 335389
I should note that the amplifier never shut down even though it was pushed hard and into clipping. Very happy about that!
Conclusions
Our suite measurements show some progress toward a more uniform and performant AV product, far outperforming previous generation AV products from Marantz. Other than the weak attenuation of the filter, there are no major holes. I like to see the company attempt to climb up one step in total performance as to not make me stress over whether recommending it or not!
I am going to recommend the Marantz Cinema 40 AVR. It is expensive but delivers good enough performance.
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As always, questions, comments, recommendations, etc. are welcome.
Any donations are much appreciated using: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/how-to-support-audio-science-review.8150/
AP get's more and more greedy ... I paid 6k this year to get my software to the newest version and keep it updated for the next 5 years - so I am able to simply use my 20k measurement device! (Cause THEY had a bug with windows .NET update!)
Couldn't you use the old module for just transfering Audio? Maybe the distributor can organise that?
Aren't there any multichannel Digital Audio/HDMI converters? Such a device should do it also. Cause the Computer HDMI output ... really can't be trusted.
Is Marantz Cinema 40 sounding warmer than Denon, as Marantz and many owners of brand would confess?ok so for the understanding of the other 99 percent non engeneering background readers of this forum... is it correct to deduce that the C40 is far far superior to the X4800 and the price difference is justified....?
because everywhere we read people say the x4800/C40 have identical components inside and sound the same and perform the same and that all the C40 gives over X4800 is asthetics.
The values for 2ohm were determined in the imp.sel. 8ohm position, correct? I don't know the exact protection design of this AVR, but couldn't it be that even more current is tolerated for 2ohm in the 4ohm position?
Has anything like this ever been measured?
Many thanks for an excellent review that includes measuring the pre out level up to 4 V, and reactive load tests on the power amps down to 2 Ohms. I think you may be the first reviewer who included those two tests in one single bench test session. Again, thank you for the nice desert!!
It looks like D+M did manage to squeeze the 93 dB SINAD spec TI PCM5102A dry, totally dry. They should patent their DAC chip implementation for achieving the seemingly impossible 98 dB SINAD you measured on the pre outs using Toslink. Even if they use differential implementation by doubling the number of the PCM chips, it doesn't seem possible to reach 98 dB when the spec for the chip all by itself is only 93 dB. Differential implementation mainly benefits in term of may be up to 6 dB noise reduction at the most anyway.
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Based on the pre out performance of the Cinema 40 and the AVR-X4800H, may be D+M/Masimo has secretly replaces the PCM5102A with a better one such as the ESS's ES9010K2M??
Thank you for your explanation. I wonder if you can also comment on the measurements of the Cinema 70 (https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/marantz-cinema-70s-avr-review.50334/), I asked, because like its predecessors, it doesn't have HDAMs and I don't know if Marantz still use the NJM8080 opamp to buffer the pre out like they did on some of the previous D+M models such as the following (front channels only):Reducing the digital volume by 6dB in the DSP process so that 0dBFS is produced at -6dBFS should improve THD. The lost 6dB can be made up with gain from the NJR volume control which has a significantly better THD+N rating than the TI DAC IC and thus should be able to give up a bit of THD+N performance, or in the Marantz unit perhaps the gain of the HDAM output buffers. I've no idea of the practicality of running the HDAM's with 6dB of voltage gain.
I will us my PC standalone version, and use HDMI input.How would you use DLBC on the 70 series product?
So a stand alone version on a PC will allow you to operate Dirac without the avr needing to officially support it? I only asked because I thought Dirac was only supported in 40, 50 and thr upcoming 30? This would be like virtual correction?
The reason why it will work for me is that I will use the AVR for 2 channel stereo music only, and I already have the JRiver license, Foobar is free ware, and I am paying for Amazon music and Qobuz too, there is no downsize for me to play everything on my PCs. For movies, I would not use HTPC because I don't want to give up things like Atomos, DTS:X etc.I think that's what I was trying to get at ..the PC doing the processing. I did see where you had discussed this before and was trying to understand the other person who kept saying they didn't want to add a windows computer to thier home theater. I have been using a pc as a home theater forever. Thank you. I should have done my homework better on Dirac.