Posted by a member on avs forums, said to be information from marantz support when he inquired. That's all I have and that's why I am curious.
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Marantz Cinema 40 AVR Review
- Thread starter amirm
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Because if it is true, connecting an external dac to the avr doesn't make sense.
Thank you very much for the info. The potential trouble with such posts quoting D+M support is that the front line personnel are often not very knowledgeable on the more technically oriented questions, so unless the enquirer is experienced in dealing with them, they might just end up getting answers that could either be inaccurate, misleading, or just plain wrong for whatever reasons. When I asked them that kind of questions, I usually tried to word it in ways that they have to be more careful in sourcing their available answers lol..
Anyway, the Cinema series are relatively new and D+M seems to have stopped making service manuals available, so the answer I gave was based on the fact that the published info seem to suggest the basic design in the preamp/dac signal flow block diagrams are virtually the same the the previous models including the AV7705, SR7015, and the corresponding Denon models, that do have service manual available.
That said, there may be some Masimo training videos that contain enough tell tale information and if I could them those, I will post them, in fact I remember finding and posting some of the block diagrams that may help. As far as for Amir to take those measurements every time, I'll welcome that, but I fully appreciate the fact that he has only 24 hours a day and his review/measurements workload would force him to concentrate on measurements that are useful to most people, not just a few.
Okay, just found one I have saved, posted some time ago but here it is again for @strum and may be @PGansz too? Let me know if you need more backup, or info that would indicate the analog input signal won't be routed through the ADC, if direct/pure direct mode is selected:
The presentation on the Denon equivalent is a little clearer, in that you can clearly see the Analog input signal has two paths, one goes through the ADC, and the other go straight to the "Selector". That's why if you want this path you must select direct/pure direct mode, and the reason why when you pick that selection, DSP functions such as Audyssey will be disabled.
The presentation on the Denon equivalent is a little clearer, in that you can clearly see the Analog input signal has two paths, one goes through the ADC, and the other go straight to the "Selector". That's why if you want this path you must select direct/pure direct mode, and the reason why when you pick that selection, DSP functions such as Audyssey will be disabled.
Another solid proof is the following, that @Amir basically but virtually had confirmed the using analog input in pure direct mode (actually, likely even in stereo mode as long as no bass management, room correction are used), the ADC/DSP/DAC path would be bypassed:
www.audiosciencereview.com
If you guys have doubt about that, don't trust me, but contact @amirm , and trust him.
So, with that, hopefully the claim by whoever on AVSF that "supposedly impossible to bypass the built in ADC/DSP/DAC in cinema series." is debunked, yet again lol...
The important thing to understand is, if you don't want that cheap ADC Marantz (and Denon too obviously) used, it would/could be bypassed if you select direct or pure direct mode, but also obvious that if you do so, you won't be able to use Audyssey.
EDIT: Sory, missing the important word "don't"
Marantz Cinema 40 AVR Review
This is a review and detailed measurements of the Marantz Cinema 40 9.4 channel AV Receiver (AVR). It is on kind loan from a member and costs US $3,500. As is typical in this class, you get a very large box. At least the look is unique and to my liking. The port hole display while limiting...
www.audiosciencereview.com
If you guys have doubt about that, don't trust me, but contact @amirm , and trust him.
So, with that, hopefully the claim by whoever on AVSF that "supposedly impossible to bypass the built in ADC/DSP/DAC in cinema series." is debunked, yet again lol...
The important thing to understand is, if you don't want that cheap ADC Marantz (and Denon too obviously) used, it would/could be bypassed if you select direct or pure direct mode, but also obvious that if you do so, you won't be able to use Audyssey.
EDIT: Sory, missing the important word "don't"
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That's all for chiming in on this.
My intention would really be to preserve Audyssey and the DSP with a clean SINAD.
My preferences always lean to DSP system over Pure Direct when I AB in my home; although I suspect they are not level matched because of the corrections applied.
My intention would really be to preserve Audyssey and the DSP with a clean SINAD.
My preferences always lean to DSP system over Pure Direct when I AB in my home; although I suspect they are not level matched because of the corrections applied.
Well done @peng , thanks for doing the homework on that.
That would be true, but still if you take the numbers as seriously audible, not only don't use Audyssey or any other function requiring the onboard DAC, don't use the onboard amps since they will drop the full path SINAD to about 85-87db. You really might just as well just take the C40 out and use another quality 2ch integrated .
LOL, yea me too, but sadly you'll have to look elsewhere and spend more $ to get it all rolled into one.
OTOH, I'm comfortable with the sound and numbers from my late model Denon X4700H. It may be possible that another 10db SINAD or more might offer a tiny bit better sound from the one in multimillion source albums of SOTA quality. But till that happens I'll be happy with what I have.
Cheers Friends.
The tricky thing is "clean" SINAD. You can in fact preserve Audyssey/DSP regardless of using digital or analog inputs, but SINAD will expectedly be lower if you use analog inputs because of the double conversion process. It is tricky because how clean is clean enough for you? If say, 70-80 dB SINAD is not clean enough to you then obviously there is no point using analog inputs with your external dac or other devices. To many people, 70-80 dB SINAD from the preouts is not an issue, just ask many Marantz AVRs/AVPs fans.
Your preference seems clear, but I am not clear if you are in fact thinking of using analog inputs with your ext. dacs kind of devices, and still want to preserve Audyssey, with "clean" SINAD. If you do, then as Sal1950 alluded to, it is not going to do what you want, and I would even add that even if you are willing to spend a lot more $, it just can't logically be done.
Then it appears a pre/pro and separate amp be purchased. I was hoping for some numbers closer to the AVP10 100ish SINAD.
If it's not feasible for a mid-tier price then I'll have to wait for next gen gear to be tested.
I was thinking that pre-amp mode would preserve room correction and provide cleaner output noise by turning off the amps - I guess not.
If it's not feasible for a mid-tier price then I'll have to wait for next gen gear to be tested.
I was thinking that pre-amp mode would preserve room correction and provide cleaner output noise by turning off the amps - I guess not.
Generally speaking, anyone expecting a world of difference between a Marantz and its Denon equivalent will be greatly disappointed!
I only asked if anyone including Amir has tested the pre-puts on the cinema series units.
It would be similar to the result from Amir's 4800 bench test (DACs are the same).
4800 bench test
Denon AVR-X4800H AVR Review
This is a review and detailed measurements of the Denon AVR-X4800H 9.4 home theater receiver. It was kindly drop shipped by a member and costs US $2499. While the look is the same as previous generations, the feel of the control knobs is much improved which I appreciate. Menu system is also...
www.audiosciencereview.com
Cinema 40 bench test
Marantz Cinema 40 AVR Review
This is a review and detailed measurements of the Marantz Cinema 40 9.4 channel AV Receiver (AVR). It is on kind loan from a member and costs US $3,500. As is typical in this class, you get a very large box. At least the look is unique and to my liking. The port hole display while limiting...
www.audiosciencereview.com
Sure it can and does. But room correction is done digitally and you can't shut off the internal DAC's using Direct or Pure Direct
thru the analog inputs and still do any room correction.
As mentioned before, the issue is not about using a pre/pro+separate amp or AVR, but about whether you want to use analog inputs.
If you use analog inputs, then there is no solution for you to achieve 100ish SINAD if you mean >100 dB SINAD. In fact, the AV10 will not do better than the Cinema 40, simply because the bottleneck is not the DAC IC, but the ADC IC in this particular case. You may be able to get close to 95 dB but then I don't recall anyone has measured the pre out SINAD with Audyssey running either. So, we don't know with Audyssey in use, how much will pre out SINAD drop, or whether it would drop at all.
To get closer to 100 dB SINAD, you could try the Anthem AVM90, because it uses a much better ADC IC. Then again, no one has measured it with ARC G running. Also, if you like Audyssey you may be disappointed with ARC G, that is nowhere near as good based on measurements, though subjectively anyone can say anything, so many ARC G users would tell you it is fantastic, some even think it is the best!
As I said before, you are not being 100% clear (I take it you don't use Toslink, but never actually said you would only use analog inputs). If you are, then pre-out SINAD will sink (preamp mode or not), because of the double conversion, and the ADC IC used by Masimo D+M isn't that great to begin with.. I hope it is crystal clear this time. Again, let's be totally clear, pre-amp mode or not is not the issue, using analog input with Audyssey in use is the issue.
Also, if you do plan on using analog inputs, would you share your rationale? You did mention something about "Toslink serve no purpose" to you but why not HDMI?
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Inputs I use are HDMI in and Airplay/bluetooth. Outputs I use are HDMI out to TV, and analog out to speakers - that's it.
I was wondering about the DAC performance, and pre-out performance in pre-amp mode to see if it could achieve anything close to a typical XLR out performance: high 90's to low 100's SINAD.
I am also curious as to voltage that can be supplied to RCA pre-outs and what noise is generated at those voltages - Amir did address this in the Cinema 40.
I think you are overthinking it, especially the SINAD part. I have AV-10 and love it. But also have 80dB SINAD amps in the chain. Sounds fabulous.
Why I have AV 10 AVP? Lots of reasons, but nothing really to do with SINAD.
It runs very cool which I love - might sound strange but important to me. It has XLR which I use mostly for subs that are not that close to AVP. It is a proof of master engineering that went into it and I tend to love such pieces and don't mind paying for them.
On more practical side, it gives me 2 more channels to expand to when feel like it. I also run all 9 bed layer speakers as large and then load LFE to them as well (sans centre), so that is why I want external amps to do it. For me it was not a difficult choice as I had the amps for last 15 years. And 80dB SINAD amps are not really making it obviously worse. Had higher performing Storm amp for test drive and really could not tell the difference. LCR have more solid amps but still no stats to show off by current standards or to match AV-10 SINAD.
Why I have AV 10 AVP? Lots of reasons, but nothing really to do with SINAD.
It runs very cool which I love - might sound strange but important to me. It has XLR which I use mostly for subs that are not that close to AVP. It is a proof of master engineering that went into it and I tend to love such pieces and don't mind paying for them.
On more practical side, it gives me 2 more channels to expand to when feel like it. I also run all 9 bed layer speakers as large and then load LFE to them as well (sans centre), so that is why I want external amps to do it. For me it was not a difficult choice as I had the amps for last 15 years. And 80dB SINAD amps are not really making it obviously worse. Had higher performing Storm amp for test drive and really could not tell the difference. LCR have more solid amps but still no stats to show off by current standards or to match AV-10 SINAD.
livinon2wheels
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Think about it this way, as far as the amplifier's overall frequency response its going to be dead flat in Pure mode with no corrections applied and with DSP applied it isn't. there is no possible way for it to be 'level matched' when the two response curves are not the same. It is an impossible feat to match two different curves because at one end or the other the levels won't match by definition. Otherwise, DSP wouln't be doing its job.
Okay, finally you are clear about using HDMI digital input. In that case, you do know the SINAD of the preamp/dac, i.e. measured at the pre outs. The numbers are right there in Amir's review, as linked by @EWL5 post#253, but for you quick look:
It isn't excellent as you desired high 90's, but 92 dB versus 96 dB really is academic, you are not going hear a difference based on that one metric, all else being equal.
As for XLR out performance versus RCA out, for those AVRs, there won't be much difference based on past bench tests here on ASR, in fact, in some cases, XLR out did a little worse.
You don't "supplied" voltage to RCA pre-outs as they are outputs so I am not sure what your question really is.
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