Marantz Cinema 30

[Oddball]

Definitely expecting too much unfortunately. Perhaps just a function of bad room and desire to use advanced bass management.

The first one perhaps being more important - software better understanding direct vs reflected sound would be greatly appreciated.

Advanced bass management with Audy is really great, but requires lots of time and adjustments both in setup and actual use. Automated solution would go a long way.

If we stay where we are in the mainstream room EQ space for next 5 years, I will be really disappointed, but I guess there are always options to take a mortgage and try Lyngdorf or Trinnov. And potentially be poorer and even more disappointed

 

[napfkuchen]

All in all, not much to upgrade to - Lingdorf or Trinnov?

... and Stormaudio. Similar price and with ART. It's really impressive from what I've seen, but not "14.000 Euro and additional amplifiers necessary"-impressive (for me).

 

[masterhw]

Advanced bass management with Audy is really great, but requires lots of time and adjustments both in setup and actual use. Automated solution would go a long way.

Progress on this has come from an unlikely place. AV forum users (with some overlap here) lightly reverse engineered Audyssey's internal filters to implement some pretty sophisticated REW-aided room EQ ("AudysseyOne/A1 Neuron"). Its still a little cumbersome to use, but getting better, and really has elevated my own Denon AVR to a level I didn't expect it to be capable of. Certainly worth investigating given practically every D&M AVR is capable of running it.

 

[Whoareyou]

There was one person over at AVS who had a verbal conversation w/someone that ART may not come to the mass market AVRs after all!
Yes, the above is pure hearsay but wouldn't surprise me if Dirac went a different direction and decided their company is too small to handle exponentially more questions about their products!

Anything is possible, but one thing I learned about Dirac is their beta programs run for extended periods of time. The rumour might be true, but Dirac just seems to roll out products at snails pace.

Would their product support load increase or just shift resources from DLBC to ART on desktop and AVRs?
Also, wouldn't you think that Dirac already ramped up to handle any questions about product when they took on the AVR market?

 

[EWL5]

Also, wouldn't you think that Dirac already ramped up to handle any questions about product when they took on the AVR market?

Dirac is not a retail store getting ready for Black Friday and the holidays where they can grab seasonal hires and release them weeks later!

If you were part of the AVS master Dirac thread, I doubt you would think that Dirac had "enough" technical support staff!
Let's not forget that nearly every Dirac user is basically a beta tester too!

 

[Whoareyou]

Dirac is not a retail store getting ready for Black Friday and the holidays where they can grab seasonal hires and release them weeks later!

If you were part of the AVS master Dirac thread, I doubt you would think that Dirac had "enough" technical support staff!
Let's not forget that nearly every Dirac user is basically a beta tester too!

Dirac has now had years to ramp up their support organization. My support experiences are based on many years and every release of Dirac except for ART. Sometimes a bit difficult via support tickets, but when a new person showed up, they were usually pretty good or get me the answer I need and get it raised to their devs to get it fixed. Sometimes it took a while to get issue resolved, but I found them pretty responsive and good to work with.

I don't need to be lectured on what it takes to get a support person up to speed. As far as people's experiences and expectations in the AVS forum, they are what they are and I can't speak for them.

 

[EWL5]

Dirac has now had years to ramp up their support organization. My support experiences are based on many years and every release of Dirac except for ART. Sometimes a bit difficult via support tickets, but when a new person showed up, they were usually pretty good or get me the answer I need and get it raised to their devs to get it fixed. Sometimes it took a while to get issue resolved, but I found them pretty responsive and good to work with.

I don't need to be lectured on what it takes to get a support person up to speed. As far as people's experiences and expectations in the AVS forum, they are what they are and I can't speak for them.

Yes, years to ramp up. Where's ART on mass market AVRs? You don't think co-Founder Mathias Johansson leaving Dirac sets them back somewhat?

 

[Whoareyou]

Yes, years to ramp up. Where's ART on mass market AVRs? You don't think co-Founder Mathias Johansson leaving Dirac sets them back somewhat?

No idea where ART is, for AVR or PC, but I can tell you that I also waited years to get the offical DLBC version on my PC, and that was with Mathias Johansson at the helm.
If at this point, Dirac hasn't developed the technologists needed to survive without him, then I don't see how they could survive anyway.

 

[EWL5]

if Dirac went a different direction and decided their company is too small to handle exponentially more questions about their products!

I doubt that that's the case.

@fzst, you've spent more than a week in the ER (aka "Dirac Live" thread) over at AVS. Do you still stand by this opinion?

Remember that there are barely any questions in that thread for ART (most for DL and/or DLBC). Can you imagine what would happen to that thread after getting their hands on ART?!!!

 

[Nondemo01]

More likely just your unit, for some seemingly weird issue(s). It seems other C30 owners generally are happy with theirs.

I hope to join the "generally happy" crowd as I just ordered a refurb from Marantz Outlet and am deciding if I will send it in to Amir for a bench test. (I was using a Denon AVR X4700h for the living room and kinda want to know how much "better" the 30 is.) I'm going to use it in my, call it small-ish "TV room" and pair it with my GoldenEar Supersats (60s, 50s, 3s) and their little SuperSubXs (4). For the "audiophile" listening in the living room, I'm ordering some Perlisten S7ts, a NAD M66 and M23 and a Technics turntable. Probably buying a Kaleidescape vs a TV for the living room but we'll see. I'm doing the upgrade really for the 4 subwoofer outs, Dirac, and I'm sick of falling asleep to movies on the sofa! First world problems....

 

[Whoareyou]

More likely just your unit, for some seemingly weird issue(s). It seems other C30 owners generally are happy with theirs.

Count me as one who is not happy with thei unit. I love how the unit sounds, and still think it's best sounding AVR I've ever owned, but have many frustrations with HDMI output, and I'm not the only one who experiences these issues. Of course these HDMI issues are very difficult to nail down, but at this point I'm confident that it's not my cabling or my connected equipment.

So, how many people are actually having these types of issues compared to number of units sold? That's the question that is impossible to answer at this point however something seems to be going on with at least some (limited?) set of these units. It's discussed in a thread over on AVS Cinema 30 forum. In hindsight I wish I had returned my unit for exchange, but I made mistake of thinking it was a firmware update that would resolve the HDMI issues.

Positive with whole situation is that the unit has a 5 year warranty so I have plenty of time to decide on when I send it to have service facility check it out.

 

[peng]

In hindsight I wish I had returned my unit for exchange, but I made mistake of thinking it was a firmware update that would resolve the HDMI issues.

I made the same mistake with my first Anthem unit, it was the fan issues, not only thinking it was fixable via FW update but actually was reported that it was fixed but it wasn't. That mistake costed my losing almost C$600 in less than 4 months. Now I know the golden rule is, if in doubt, return it or insist on getting a replacement asap from the dealer. It is best to buy these not too cheap items from places that allows no question ask returns as long as the owner keeps everything in good shape including the box. That's the good thing about buying D+M, Yamaha, Onkyo etc., because you can always buy them from such authorized dealers.

 

[Jumu]

Agreed, in fact, I think the best value AVP at the moment are the Masimo D+M AVRs, namely the AVR-X6800H and the Cinema 30. This pair have the latest Sabre ESS DAC IC, that has almost the same specs (on SINAD anyway) as the AK4490 used in the former flagship AVPs, I meant the AK4490 before the AKM factory fire. In terms of DSD capability it is actually better than the ES9018K2M used in the AV10, because the ES9017 is DSD native capable, though it is really a moot point for the current model year, because of how D+M implement their DSD capabilities.

What is dsd? What can DM implement?

 

[peng]

What is dsd? What can DM implement?

There are numerous articles on DSD and PCM on the internet, below is just one example:

DSD vs. PCM: Myth vs. Truth

DSD vs. PCM: Myth vs Truth

www.mojo-audio.com

Just because the DAC IC (aka chip) has the capability, it does not mean the design/implementation would have the full capabilities.

I don't believe DSD sounds better than PCM but I have found that there seem to be more high quality recordings available in the DSD format than those in the PCM format. I only mention it as a matter of specs/facts, but in terms of the resulting sound quality, I think it is a moot point because sound quality depends on so many factors, and the DAC ICs are in many cases not really the limiting factor any more, that's just my opinion.

 

[EWL5]

There are numerous articles on DSD and PCM on the internet, below is just one example:

DSD vs. PCM: Myth vs. Truth

DSD vs. PCM: Myth vs Truth

www.mojo-audio.com

Just because the DAC IC (aka chip) has the capability, it does not mean the design/implementation would have the full capabilities.

I don't believe DSD sounds better than PCM but I have found that there seem to be more high quality recordings available in the DSD format than those in the PCM format. I only mention it as a matter of specs/facts, but in terms of the resulting sound quality, I think it is a moot point because sound quality depends on so many factors, and the DAC ICs are in many cases not really the limiting factor any more, that's just my opinion.

Are there better sources for DSD other than the defunct SACD format?

 

[peng]

Are there better sources for DSD other than the defunct SACD format?

I bought from nativedsd.com a few times, they don't have selections as wide as https://www.hdtracks.com/

DSD Audio Downloads | DSD, DXD, 384k PCM, FLAC, MKV | NativeDSD Music

Native DSD is the high-resolution music platform for master studio quality music lovers. Download stereo, surround or binaural .dsf .flac or .wav

www.nativedsd.com

They are typically more expensive than the PCM formats so I would usually research my selections before buying, and stick to the so called "original mastering recordings".

 

[Whoareyou]

I bought from nativedsd.com a few times, they don't have selections as wide as https://www.hdtracks.com/

DSD Audio Downloads | DSD, DXD, 384k PCM, FLAC, MKV | NativeDSD Music

Native DSD is the high-resolution music platform for master studio quality music lovers. Download stereo, surround or binaural .dsf .flac or .wav

www.nativedsd.com

They are typically more expensive than the PCM formats so I would usually research my selections before buying, and stick to the so called "original mastering recordings".

Also, check out review sites such ar hraudio.net to see what people think of the particular release. Some SACD definitely are not an improvement over prior releases distributed on other media. As others have mentioned, SACD doesn't necessarily mean better sound as there are many other factors such as the (re) mastering.

 

[peng]

Also, check out review sites such ar hraudio.net to see what people think of the particular release. Some SACD definitely are not an improvement over prior releases distributed on other media. As others have mentioned, SACD doesn't necessarily mean better sound as there are many other factors such as the (re) mastering.

Of course, it is all about recording/mastering quality, I have regular CDs that sound better than some of my SACDs, DSD and 192kHz/24 bit PCM files. Again, my point is simply that there seem to be more good recording/mastering contents available in the DSD format or PCM at above 48 kHz/24b, but that's based on my own experience so I am not sure if this is the norm.

 

[Whoareyou]

Of course, it is all about recording/mastering quality, I have regular CDs that sound better than some of my SACDs, DSD and 192kHz/24 bit PCM files. Again, my point is simply that there seem to be more good recording/mastering contents available in the DSD format or PCM at above 48 kHz/24b, but that's based on my own experience so I am not sure if this is the norm.

Ooops, I replied to wrong person. Thought I replied to @EWLS.
But to your comment, I couldn't agree more about some CDs sounding better and also your point about the 24bit/48khz stuff. IMO many (not all) of the multichannel versions sound better than their stereo counterparts (and not because I prefer multichannel music).

 

[masterhw]

It was only when I got some multichannel SACD recordings I learned lower end Denon-Marantz models can't be fed multichannel DSD over HDMI - but the C30 can. Strongly recommend Fleetwood Mac Rumours 5.1 DSD. As others have mentioned, I'm hesitant to assign how great it sounds to the technical format when its clear the mix/master itself is appreciably different from any other version I've heard (including the Tidal Atmos option).