• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

Marantz AV8805A Review (AV Processor)

MacCali

Major Contributor
Joined
Dec 21, 2020
Messages
1,136
Likes
543
Also to confirm, if I were to buy a high quality 4K player for video and sound my AVR the 7013, I’m sure measurements are equal to the 7015 that Amir posted. The unit would just F the sound off??? Unless I use the 7 channel SE output? Or it’s screwed regardless? Lol
 

Whoareyou

Active Member
Forum Donor
Joined
Jul 6, 2020
Messages
112
Likes
133
Location
Chicago
This site helps to make an informed buying decision with great information but other than people on this site, what percent of AVR buyers care about SINAD or the DAC's filter? Features (i.e. can it play Napster ?) , how the product looks, and "will it work" with my speakers" and TV are the main questions at the BestBuy.

Bu,, if you want a processor with balanced outputs, and with all of the features that this 8805a has built in, what are the choices? Not saying I agree that better specs wouldn't be nicer, but the feature set stuffed into this box is phenomenal - even if it cost $5000.00.

Personally, I don't need many of these features so I wish they would "dumb" down the features and produce a box that measures at state of art levels AND was much more basic. I guess basic is a relative term when that means supporting a multitude of constantly evolving audio and video formats.
But just maybe, if they simplified the receiver's feature set they'd have more time to spend on improving the specs?
 
D

Deleted member 30699

Guest
Last edited by a moderator:

Sancus

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Nov 30, 2018
Messages
2,926
Likes
7,636
Location
Canada
I don't use Atmos. There's of course software but not sure if there is a 'consumer video player'
https://professional.dolby.com/product/home-entertainment/dolby-media-decoder/

Atmos is very important, most people building a HT today want it. Of course it's possible for professionals to decode professional audio formats in software, but that doesn't help you with streaming or bluray content. Much of the pro audio software for working with Atmos is also Mac-only, including the old one you linked(which is not available anymore).

Even if it was possible, cheap(it's not) and simple(no way) to decode consumer audio streams, it'd probably be against the license agreement and Dolby would come down hard on anybody describing how to use it for that purpose.

Edit: ffmpeg can decode Dolby Atmos files
http://trac.ffmpeg.org/ticket/3960
so there is a number of players that can do it including Kodi and Emby
VLC seems to have (some) support too.

/sigh no it cannot. It can output Atmos bitstreams to hardware decoders(like AVRs). No consumer playback software can decode Atmos. Trust me on this, since all your knowledge seems to be based on googling in the last 30 minutes.
 
D

Deleted member 30699

Guest
How are you going to switch HDMI inputs on a Windows computer, let alone on Raspberry PI
I actually don't need HDMI inputs but I can see why someone would want that.
I'd simply end up using HDMI capture cards (usb or pci). They are quite cheap there are certainly Linux compatible ones for the RPI...

what software will you use to decode the current surround formats?
I use primarily kodi and emby
 
D

Deleted member 30699

Guest
/sigh no it cannot. It can output Atmos bitstreams to hardware decoders(like AVRs). No consumer playback software can decode Atmos. Trust me on this, since all your knowledge seems to be based on googling in the last 30 minutes.
Alright - my question was genuine so maybe Atmos is a reason why you'd want something like this.
Also talking about experience - my experience is that everything that is 'shown' (as in displayed or audio playback) can always be decoded (please read this as a white hat statement).
 

Sancus

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Nov 30, 2018
Messages
2,926
Likes
7,636
Location
Canada
Also talking about experience - my experience is that everything that is 'shown' (as in displayed or audio playback) can always be decoded (please read this as a white hat statement).

Yes, I agree it's theoretically possible to reverse engineer the Atmos decoding algorithms, it's been done for the older proprietary Dolby formats. However no one has released such a thing to the public at this time. If a practical solution existed it would be widely known as the hardware decoder requirement is frustrating for many.
 
D

Deleted member 30699

Guest
Yes, I agree it's theoretically possible to reverse engineer the Atmos decoding algorithms, it's been done for the older proprietary Dolby formats. However no one has released such a thing to the public at this time. If a practical solution existed it would be widely known as the hardware decoder requirement is frustrating for many.
Agreed.
BTW, you got me interested in Atmos, which I did not care much about before.
If you really wanted to beat the system, you could let a StormAudio ISP MK2 decode from a HDMI source and move it to AVB or other digital out.
There is of course not much sense to it as this as the StormAudio is a high $ device.
Also, am I getting this right: Dolby Atmos is just metadata that is used to remix 8 channels to any number of channels using position information?
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Newman

Major Contributor
Joined
Jan 6, 2017
Messages
3,500
Likes
4,322
Dolby Atmos is just metadata that is used to remix 8 channels to any number of channels using position information?

Hardly. You can start in the studio with up to 128 tracks, plus spatial metadata. Then, depending on whether the application is theatre, home theatre or game, a different number of bed channels plus object tracks is made available. The language is different to what we are familiar with: for example, for home movies, only one bed channel is used and 11 object tracks. The home movie audio is basically all object data.

You might be thinking of the fact that DA can be used to play through conventional surround sound HT layouts like 5.1 and 7.1, with or without height speakers added, but I don't think that is how it is defined or limited. OTOH the limited processors in AVRs have led to some limited DA applications for HT, despite the fact that Atmos in home theatres can support 24.1.10 channels. I don't think DA throttles down to 8 channels and then back up to more: rather, it maps to however many your setup and AVR tech can process.

P.S. I have L plates for this topic, so hopefully others can enrich us both.
 

GXAlan

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 15, 2020
Messages
3,893
Likes
6,011

Sancus

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Nov 30, 2018
Messages
2,926
Likes
7,636
Location
Canada
If you really wanted to beat the system, you could let a StormAudio ISP MK2 decode from a HDMI source and move it to AVB or other digital out.
There is of course not much sense to it as this as the StormAudio is a high $ device.
Also, am I getting this right: Dolby Atmos is just metadata that is used to remix 8 channels to any number of channels using position information?

There are some cheaper ways than that, you can modify an AVR to get digital outputs, or use a JBL SDP-55(~$6K) with Dante->AES adapters. Others have addressed this, but the Atmos substream contains object data and location/panning metadata for those objects, not just panning for the beds. Also, this probably isn't the thread for too many Atmos-specific technical details...
 
D

Deleted member 30699

Guest
There are some cheaper ways than that, you can modify an AVR to get digital outputs, or use a JBL SDP-55(~$6K) with Dante->AES adapters. Others have addressed this, but the Atmos substream contains object data and location/panning metadata for those objects, not just panning for the beds. Also, this probably isn't the thread for too many Atmos-specific technical details...

Alright maybe I'm just reading this wrong [from Wikipedia]
"Because of limited bandwidth and lack of processing power, Atmos in home theaters is different from cinemas. A spatially-coded substream is added to Dolby TrueHD or Dolby Digital Plus or is present as metadata in Dolby MAT 2.0, LPCM like format. This substream is an efficient representation of the full, original object-based mix. This is not a matrix-encoded channel, but a spatially-encoded digital signal with panning metadata. Atmos in home theaters can support 24.1.10 channels, it also can do up to 118 dynamical simultaneous objects with 10 bed channels[34][35] and uses the spatially-encoded object audio substream to mix the audio presentation to match the installed speaker configuration."
 

MacCali

Major Contributor
Joined
Dec 21, 2020
Messages
1,136
Likes
543
This site helps to make an informed buying decision with great information but other than people on this site, what percent of AVR buyers care about SINAD or the DAC's filter? Features (i.e. can it play Napster ?) , how the product looks, and "will it work" with my speakers" and TV are the main questions at the BestBuy.

Bu,, if you want a processor with balanced outputs, and with all of the features that this 8805a has built in, what are the choices? Not saying I agree that better specs wouldn't be nicer, but the feature set stuffed into this box is phenomenal - even if it cost $5000.00.

Personally, I don't need many of these features so I wish they would "dumb" down the features and produce a box that measures at state of art levels AND was much more basic. I guess basic is a relative term when that means supporting a multitude of constantly evolving audio and video formats.
But just maybe, if they simplified the receiver's feature set they'd have more time to spend on improving the specs?
The Emotiva TMC-1 is basically the same price and has 16 channels of processing and better measurements. Like I mentioned I don’t think there’s a huge difference between many of these units.

Yes denon is better but it seems most of these units whether it’s separates or all in one seem to have poor performance on paper. However I can’t say and this was mentioned previously that you would even be able to spot out the differences even on blind testing the receivers.

Second, Amir just released his speaker review review and even stated without listening to one speaker it makes it very difficult to notice what you have.. add a second speaker for stereo and it’s even worse. And last the 5 channel listening test is almost impossible to tell any differences cause the sound is coming from everywhere and just melds together.

So for me it seems to make sense. I’ve never owned a home theater prior to the one I have now so I have no base line. To me it sounds amazing and I have the 3 front channels amped on there own. It sounds better than a movie theater to me when it comes to loudness and how encompassing it is.
 

GXAlan

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 15, 2020
Messages
3,893
Likes
6,011
Alright maybe I'm just reading this wrong [from Wikipedia]."

You are reading it a bit incorrectly. The metadata also has sound information.

The first paragraph of that Wikipedia article in the Trchnology section is clearer

“Dolby Atmos in theaters has a 9.1 "bed" channels for ambience stems or center dialogue, leaving 118 tracks for objects.”

(this means that it’s 128 distinct channels, although the bed channels are what you normally think about as old school channels and the remaining 118 channels has additional metadata to position them in 3D space)

“Atmos for home in films has only 1 bed channel in LFE and usually 11 dynamic objects. In Atmos games ISF (Intermediate Spatial format) is used, that supports 32 total active objects (for 7.1.4 bed 20 additional dynamic objects can be active[8]). Each object specifies its apparent source location in the theater, as a set of three-dimensional rectangular coordinates relative to the defined audio channel locations and theater boundaries.

(For home Atmos, you have the base TrueHD or DD+ 7.1 bed. You then have around 11 dynamic objects plus the LFE info for those 11 objects merged together into a single LFE Atmos channel. Those 11 spatial objects will group together “tens” of the cinema sounds together so it still can pan those sounds anywhere. But you started with 118 tracks and made them 11 or so. This is how Atmos works for streaming sources like Disney Plus.)

The Atmos for games is where you aren’t limited by streaming data.

The link I posted above shows that there are lazy and not lazy Atmos Home mixes when looking at real world scenarios. Some movie studios hardcode the ceiling info while others really use the dynamic object data.)

Regardless of how good an individual Atmos mix is for any given movie, I think Atmos is incredible in adding to the action movie experience. A 4.1.2 setup will beat a 7.1.0 setup for most single sofa-based home theaters.
 

Sancus

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Nov 30, 2018
Messages
2,926
Likes
7,636
Location
Canada
This is not a matrix-encoded channel, but a spatially-encoded digital signal with panning metadata.

"spatially encoded digital signal" is just a simplified way of saying the data is encoded as objects with locations. I don't know what this has to do with the topic at hand or this AVR though. It's not really important how the data is encoded, just that we can't do anything with it.
 

peng

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
May 12, 2019
Messages
5,683
Likes
5,252
What design philosophy favors rising distortion at higher frequencies?

I don't know, I was just trying to respond to the question about if Marantz picked that filter because it is the default for that chip. So the fact is, Marantz tech support confirmed it was intentional when I asked them. I actually posted their response a couple times before and iirc their explanation for that choice wasn't clear to me. May be you should ask them too and see if you can get a more detailed explanation.

I also quoted Gene's (audioholic.com) understand of Marantz's rationale (he said he got it from Marantz), but all I did at the time was quoting what Marantz told me, and what they apparently told Gene. Whether any of those would make sense to anyone would be up to the individual. For me it does not make much sense, but that's just me and I have tried different filters using a couple of my DACs and I could not tell a difference anyway.

Also, my understanding is that the issue may be more to do with frequency response, not so much "rising distortion at high frequencies" except there may be issues related to the topic of "pre ringing, post ringing..", that I am not familiar with.

Other than that the rising distortions you referred to would be in the range above 20,000 Hz. You can see that Amir used 90 kHz bandwidth to show the "rising distortions" that increased to about 0.02% at about 10,000 kHz, if he had used 48 kHz you would not see much of the effect.

Using 90 kHz BW, the sampling frequency of the test signal would have to be much higher to make the effect of the filter disappears, and Amir noted "same but at 192 kHz sampling removes the effect of DAC filter". I would think that even at the lower 48 kHz sampling frequency, the distortions within the 20,000 Hz range would be much lower than what the graph shows because the graph shows the total harmonic distortions. The 2nd harmonic of 10 kHz is already at 20,000 Hz so the 3rd would be in the ultrasonic range already.

1629719027174.png
 

sarumbear

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Aug 15, 2020
Messages
7,604
Likes
7,320
Location
UK
I don't use Atmos. There's of course software but not sure if there is a 'consumer video player'
https://professional.dolby.com/product/home-entertainment/dolby-media-decoder/
The Dolby professional software is for use by licensed professional and it costs £6000! It is not a product within reach of the consumer.

Edit: ffmpeg can decode Dolby Atmos files
http://trac.ffmpeg.org/ticket/3960
so there is a number of players that can do it including Kodi and Emby.
VLC, Kodi and Emby cannot play Dolby Atmos directly. You need to be advanced computer user to configure ffmpeg to pass the decoded data to the above players. However, there is so far no demo that shows it can be done. You are hypothesising. Besides, how are you planning to run ffmpeg in realtime to decode and play on a Raspbery Pi?

I actually don't need HDMI inputs but I can see why someone would want that.
I'd simply end up using HDMI capture cards (usb or pci). They are quite cheap there are certainly Linux compatible ones for the RPI...
Video switching is the number one function of an AVR. You can have a 2-ch only AVR but you cannot have an AVR without video switching. In your own words you do not need an AVR.

Besides, show me a card that is affordable and with at least 4 HDMI inputs! Or, a PCI solution for the Raspberry Pi that doesn't require hacking and involving soldering? Demonstrate how you plan to pass HDMI 2.1 (or even 2) via a USB connection, please.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

peng

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
May 12, 2019
Messages
5,683
Likes
5,252
This HDAM is still worse than the one in the older 7701. SIMAD of the 8805A drops above 4V output while on the 7701 it increases up to the maximum of 12 V (!). So at least regarding output voltage the 7701 beats all newer Marantz AVPs.

I remember you mentioned this before but I really would love to see the actual measurement. Based on what's in the 7701, it is hard to imagine 12 V, unless it is 12 V peak, even if it is 12 peak, that is about 8.5 Vrms it would still be excellent but what was the measured SINAD at that voltage?

That older HDAM is quite different and it was used with OPA ICs that have very average specs. Hometheaterhifi.com's Dr. Rich had commented on it, not too kindly though. Marantz actually responded to that review, sort of defended Marantz (as expected), but then right after that they "upgraded" it to the current version, the same version has been in use for the AV8802A (7703/4/5, likely the 7702 as well) and AV8805 but changed for the SR8015.

Marantz AV8801 11.2 Surround Sound Processor (SSP) - HomeTheaterHifi.com

By the way I don't have the service manual of the 7701 but I have it for my 8801. Based on the 8801, SINAD would be about the same as the 7705, not better. Was the 7701 launched in the same year as the 8801?
 
Last edited:

peng

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
May 12, 2019
Messages
5,683
Likes
5,252
I'm not sure the modules are unnecessary - I think they are required to feed the balanced outputs. They just need to use opamp based circuits instead of discretes. Might cost the same as the HDAM modules but surely will be better in terms of performance.

Just want to add that their AVRs don't have balanced outputs yet they still have HDAMs that clearly could have been done without, just like the Denon AVRs. The only AVR that don't have the HDAMs are their slimline series. I agree with you that using OPAs instead of the HDAM modules would have been nice.
 
Top Bottom