Marantz AV8805A Review (AV Processor)

[multisport4me]

There is an aspect that I have never seen mentioned in the discussion (or I have just missed it). The 8805(A) has a DAC chip for each pair of channels, while lower-priced AVRs have a single multi-channel DAC, if I am not wrong.

Would the 8805(A) offer more uniform and consistent performance over all the channels? Especially when they are all concurrently used? That is not to justify the 8805(A) high price, at the same time it may be a plus.

In my opinion it should not be forgotten that usually you do not buy an AVR/AVP to listen to two channels only. The multi-channel performance is fundamental in a product like that.

Is it really too much to ask that a $5,000 AVR or AV processor can do both? Especially when it's easy to see that Denon has struck that balance quite nicely with the AVR-8500H and A110?

Personally, I listen to way more music than I watch movies. Sometimes I'll listen to 2-channel - most of the time I quite like the Dolby/DTS Pro X, Aura 2D/3D - hence the purchase of a processor vs. an integrated.

 

[respice finem]

Is it really too much to ask that a $5,000 AVR or AV processor can do both? Especially when it's easy to see that Denon has struck that balance quite nicely with the AVR-8500H and A110?

Personally, I listen to way more music than I watch movies. Sometimes I'll listen to 2-channel - most of the time I quite like the Dolby/DTS Pro X, Aura 2D/3D - hence the purchase of a processor vs. an integrated.

It can do both, but, well... stereo, not as good as some dedicated (and less complex) 2-channel devices. A "Jack of all trades" is often a master of none. That said, it can be good enough to most people who are less picky than we all are

 

[giuppo77]

Is it really too much to ask that a $5,000 AVR or AV processor can do both?

I do not have the competency to give an educated answer to that question. I can jut see that an AVR/AVP is way more complex than a 2-channel dongle DAC.

From my personal point of view, a product like the 8500(A) is perfectly fine for both music and cinema (not taking into account the price tag). In a pragmatic way, I do not make any difference between 93 or 100 db THD+N.

Personally, I listen to way more music than I watch movies. Sometimes I'll listen to 2-channel - most of the time I quite like the Dolby/DTS Pro X, Aura 2D/3D - hence the purchase of a processor vs. an integrated.

I share that with you.

 

[peng]

I agree, the measurements don't indicate a warm sound and the slight (not even a .5db) roll off below 20hz is inaudible.

You may be right based on available measurements As I mentioned before, if one compares the FFT of the Marantz AV7705 and that of a Denon AVR used as prepro one will see that if anything Denon's has a higher proportion of the main low order even harmonics than Marantz's.

So based on the so called "traditional wisdom" that even harmonics, especially 2nd vs 3rd, Denon would have a warmer sound lol... I bet Mr. Nelson Pass would agree.. . Of course in reality both have distortions low enough to stay below the threshold of audibility. So those who claimed what has just been claimed again about the warm, lean kind of sound are just people's claim; and I really think they should make it a little clearer that they were expressing their subjective impressions/experiences, not facts.

 

[truwarrior22]

I believe this is just internet lore that gets repeated so often it becomes accepted fact. I would be surprised if you could tell them apart in a double blind test.

In pure direct, with the right track and if you can quickly change back and forth, I can totally tell the difference and I can only hear up to 14khz max. Denon has this interesting high frequency too (I would call it a hint of sparkle), which Marantz doesn’t have, but I prefer the fuller lower mid range of Marantz instead of the thinner sounding Denon. Yamaha is even more interesting…especially in the bass. I don’t know exactly what Denon is doing with the high frequency, but I did find it enjoyable. Maybe it’s a phase thing, etc. is it even possible to pick up and slight phase changes during measuring? You just have to use the right track and listen for the difference.

 

[peng]

There is an aspect that I have never seen mentioned in the discussion (or I have just missed it). The 8805(A) has a DAC chip for each pair of channels, while lower priced AVRs have a single multi-channel DAC, if I am not wrong.

Yes you obviously just missed it because it has been mentioned, sometimes with links to the source of the info, on ASR multiple times that the AV8805, AVR-X8500H (obviously the AVR-A110 also) don't not use the 8 channel DAC ICs for the main channels.

Would the 8805(A) offer more uniform and consistent performance over all the channels? Especially when they are all concurrently used? That is not to justify the 8805(A) high price, at the same time it may be a plus.

I have not seen any actual measurements with all channels measured simultaneously. Based on specs and schematics, block diagrams I would say with confidence that they would perform in the same consistent manner over all channels. The same could not be said for some other brands, such as certain Yamaha, anthem models, based on specs.

In my opinion it should not be forgotten that usually you do not buy an AVR/AVP to listen to two channels only. The multi-channel performance is fundamental in a product like that.

I would say on paper yes, but for real word use then it depends. For example, some Anthem top model AVRs use much less powerful power amps for the surround channels, but if you are sitting much closer to those channels, and those speakers has the same or higher sensitivity and with similar impedance characteristics, then those channels may perform just as good with the less powerful amps for those channels.

 

[peng]

You just have to use the right track and listen for the difference.

Conversely, may be you just have to use the DBT protocol for the comparison listening sessions.

To borrow Dr. Toole's saying, if you know which one you are listening to, I don't care what you think.... Again, that's not me saying anything like that..

Imo, subjective measurements are naturally subjective, I just read a post on Audioholics.com the other day, in which someone who just hook up his MRX-1140 and it sounded so different that he thought it was like listening with his old RX-A2080 but "as if gauze were removed...", he actually said more than that...and when questioned, he confirmed that he did use bypass, straight through modes as well. I thought I mention Yamaha because you just mentioned it too.

 

[Jbrunwa]

So a change from the AKM to the ESS chip (with slightly worse specs) did not significantly change the performance of the processor. If this holds true in the Denon A models, this should not be an issue. But I suspect that there may be other performance issues based on my sample of one. My newly purchased 8500HA, the Denon sibling, drops audio intermittently when processing Atmos inputs, verified across two different inputs (blu-ray and ATV4K) and dozens of content. My previously purchased 3700H processes the same inputs and content flawlessly.

 

[peng]

So a change from the AKM to the ESS chip (with slightly worse specs) did not significantly change the performance of the processor. If this holds true in the Denon A models, this should not be an issue. But I suspect that there may be other performance issues based on my sample of one. My newly purchased 8500HA, the Denon sibling, drops audio intermittently when processing Atmos inputs, verified across two different inputs (blu-ray and ATV4K) and dozens of content. My previously purchased 3700H processes the same inputs and content flawlessly.

To me, it is a relieve that the one with the lesser ESS DAC chip seem to perform almost as good. I don't mean the 1 dB difference in preout/DAC SINAD as that is obviously within the error of margin. I compared the IMD performance and noticed that the original AV8805 did much better at lower output levels.

Regarding the audio dropping issue, I hope that is not a bug that affects all samples. You will know when you get a replacement. If you only just got the unit, you should insist on a replacement instead of getting it repaired.

 

[SynthesisCinema]

That HDAM related (just a suspect..) seems to have been finally fixed by the higher version of HDAM used in the SR8015, to the point its SINAD is as good as the Denon's, in fact a little better than Denon's, if preamp mode is not used.

Gives me mixed feelings how good the SR8015 did and see how poorly the AV7705 did which probably applies to newer AV7706 too. Now in real world test SR8015 amps disconnected and using same external amps on both SR8015 and AV7706 these two fellows could hear difference and the processor sounding little bit better as it should have been the other way around if judging objective measurements. People were curious on the comment section too where Youthman replied:

"I’m certainly not asking you to believe me. Simply sharing our experience. We both went into it not thinking it would make much (if any) difference since I was using the SR8015 in preamp mode connected to the Monolith 11X. Needless to say it was a significant difference between the two."

 

[peng]

The AV8805A's IMD is clearly not as good as the AV8805?

 

[peng]

"I’m certainly not asking you to believe me. Simply sharing our experience. We both went into it not thinking it would make much (if any) difference since I was using the SR8015 in preamp mode connected to the Monolith 11X. Needless to say it was a significant difference between the two."

I watched that one a while ago and I laughed.. No I didn't believe what they said would necessarily apply to others or even to themselves if they followed the DBT and associated methodologies.

If you look at the specs, schematics, block diagrams, there is no evidence to support what they claimed in that video and you read/or hear rather.., between the lines, they were very much under the influence of their apparent preconception that a so called separate prepro must be better than an AVR, and no one can tell them otherwise. You can argue/dispute what other people heard or claimed to have heard regardless, its their ears and brains after all.

Though I could say Dr. Toole would not have said something like.. if you know which one you are listening to I don't care what you are thinking.... Dr. Olive could have said the same too and they were referring to speakers, let alone well made electronic devices.

Audio Musings by Sean Olive: The Dishonesty of Sighted Listening Tests

 

[amirm]

The difficulty arises at the interconnects when chaining modules together. They likely don't offer extended dynamic range/bit depth on inputs and/or outputs. You'd need 2 or more modules contiguously connected that supported it to maintain a "wide" path. Lots of these DSP algorithms are proprietary black boxes, so manufacturers won't be able to do anything about that.

Exactly the problem. Companies license all these subsystem DSP modules in binary form. Most likely the input and output in each is PCM. From what I have heard a number of demand X dB of headroom or else. So you wind up knocking down the dynamic range before you hand over the bits to them. It is a completely screwed up world so no wonder performance is left on the table. I am hoping with pressure from us, these companies work together on what an integrated pipeline looks like (i.e. what Roon and other software players do).

 

[SynthesisCinema]

I watched that one a while ago and I laughed.. No I didn't believe what they said would apply to others or even to themselves if they followed the DBT and associated methodologies.

If you look at the specs, schematics, block diagrams, there is no evidence to support what they claimed in that video and you read/or hear rather.., between the lines, they were very much under the influence of their apparent preconception that a so called separate prepro must be better than an AVR, and no one can tell them otherwise.

Dr. Toole would not have said if you know which one you are listening to I don't care what you are thinking.... something like that. Dr. Olive could have said the same too and they were referring to speakers, let alone well made electronic devices.

Yes i know. Still we hear people hearing big differences with two brands units in pure direct mode. Example one of my buddy was using Denon X3300W and bought used Arcam AVR390 and set them both pure direct for music listening with 2k$ floorstanders. He bought the receiver mainly for movie use open minded due to Dirac Live, but the first thing he said to me how much better the Arcam sounded with music. He kept swapping the units, but still he was certain Arcam sounded much better. That Arcam model did measure very good here at ASR right and Denon X3500H was ok i think too so there shouldn´t be that noticeable difference even with the older X3300W. I was quite suprised as the Dirac wasn´t even used yet.

 

[Pdxwayne]

Gives me mixed feelings how good the SR8015 did and see how poorly the AV7705 did which probably applies to newer AV7706 too. Now in real world test SR8015 amps disconnected and using same external amps on both SR8015 and AV7706 these two fellows could hear difference and the processor sounding little bit better as it should have been the other way around if judging objective measurements. People were curious on the comment section too where Youthman replied:

"I’m certainly not asking you to believe me. Simply sharing our experience. We both went into it not thinking it would make much (if any) difference since I was using the SR8015 in preamp mode connected to the Monolith 11X. Needless to say it was a significant difference between the two."

Maybe there are real measurable difference between using RCA vs XLR input for the power amp?

According to measurements I read in soundstage, Parasound amps measured better with XLR inputs. I am wondering if that is the case for his amp.

 

[Everett T]

Yes i know. Still we hear people hearing big differences with two brands units in pure direct mode. Example one of my buddy was using Denon X3300W and bought used Arcam AVR390 and set them both pure direct for music listening with 2k$ floorstanders. He bought the receiver mainly for movie use open minded due to Dirac Live, but the first thing he said to me how much better the Arcam sounded with music. He kept swapping the units, but still he was certain Arcam sounded much better. That Arcam model did measure very good here at ASR right and Denon X3500H was ok i think too so there shouldn´t be that noticeable difference even with the older X3300W. I was quite suprised as the Dirac wasn´t even used yet.

That sighted / boutique bias is hard to overcome. Not saying he didn't hear a difference, as level matching probably had an impact.

 

[sarumbear]

Exactly the problem. Companies license all these subsystem DSP modules in binary form. Most likely the input and output in each is PCM. From what I have heard a number of demand X dB of headroom or else. So you wind up knocking down the dynamic range before you hand over the bits to them.

Do you mean there are separate DSPs for each surround format?

 

[amirm]

Do you mean there are separate DSPs for each surround format?

DSP software libraries. Hardware maker picks a platform (dedicated DSP, ARM processor, etc.) and then goes and licenses the code developed for that platform. Room EQ, various codecs, surround simulation, effects, bass management, etc. It is all one giant "pipeline" where compressed bits go in, and final ready to go PCM samples come out to go to the DAC.

Note that they could use multiple DSPs or cores as well but that is orthogonal to this discussion.

 

[m8o]

You're just a glutton for punishment. What is that now, four or is it five disappointing bench tests of marantz gear now? lol

 

[eboleyn]

So now the big question for me is - what do I buy for $4-$5k? It seems like everything has issues. RMC1, Lyngdorf (which I won't spend $15k on), Monoprice, etc. all have issues. I really like XLR's out but there is just nothing in this price range without issues. So far now I guess I'll stick with a 6700 that I know has the AKMs until somebody finally builds a benchmark AV processor.

About a year ago, I was looking to upgrade/change from my older Yamaha RX-Z11 unit (which seemed to suffer a bit on audio under various conditions enough that my wife was noticing the lack of clarity watching TV of all things!) to something better.

For a bit I wrestled between moving to a Denon unit (due to the good ASR reviews! ... but they didn't have some multi-zone features I'd come to rely on in the Yamaha units), and a Yamaha RX-A3080 or similar (but the questionable measurements of other Yamaha AVRs didn't inspire confidence in me), then saw there was a review on the Yamaha CX-A5000 and CX-A5200 models on the Audioholics site (Yamaha CX-A5200 Audioholics Review) which contained a few actual measurements (gasp!) and showed that they had performance comparable to the best AVRs ASR had reviewed... well if you believe them.

The review points out there is a bug in the A5200 model which distorts audio out of the front channel XLR outputs at high volume (rising 2nd/3rd harmonic), but it's down at like -75 db or so at the worst case. At lower volumes the distortion is more like the -100db or so you'd want for a flagship unit. The older versions, while not having this bug, didn't have some other features I wanted in the newer unit, so I bit the bullet and went with the A5200.

End result of all of this is that I got a Yamaha CX-A5200 + 8-channel Hypex 252MP amp box. It sounds excellent, comparable to any passive speaker setup I've tried, on music, and the TV clarity issues are completely resolved. My wife even commented right away after I'd switched it in that it was (subjectively of course) crystal clear now at all volumes. It also has the nice side-benefit of all fitting into the same single cabinet space that my old Yamaha RX-Z11 unit was in, and is completely passively cooled without getting particularly hot!

Anyway, I've been quite happy with the result.