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Marantz AV8805A Review (AV Processor)

KMO

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The unit has no issues that are audible to me when I watch movies. I cant quite understand what I am missing based on poor measurements when it's not audio that I am listening to.

TBH, I think a lot of the performance measurements in this sort of AVR review are kind of pointless for the listener. They're confirming that the money you've spent on the equipment has gone into engineered performance, but it's barely-human-perceptible performance. Almost every piece of kit is "good enough". So there probably wasn't that much point putting money into those bits. But if you're going to, may as well test you got something for the money.

And I guess if the performance is half-assed, you can infer that other things like reliability might be half-assed... It's a sign that someone doesn't know or care what they're doing.

It's a bit like the lap-time scoreboard in Top Gear - not that relevant to the average driver, but if you're going to spend a lot of money on a sports car, let's check it's a good one - you've bought a Lamborghini, not a lookalike kit car. But to be honest, most people shouldn't be spending lots of money on a car for its speed - that's not the most important thing about a car.

In AVRs, the main things that matter are functionality, reliability, lack of bugs, and power output. They're such intricate pieces of kit, you've got to concentrate on hoping to find one without some glaring functionality flaw. Only if you somehow manage to find multiple units that satisfy your needs, would I think it's reasonable to start looking at SINAD, crosstalk, distortion etc - only as tiebreaks.

It's probably only the Denon vs Marantz pairing where the measurements would be decisive, because they're actually basically the same units in every other regard. And then it's clear that the Denons win. But could people tell the difference in a blind trial? Not sure.
 

sarumbear

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Hmmmm, I am fairly confused with all these AVR reviews. I cant quite understand what I am missing based on poor measurements when it's not audio that I am listening to. Yes we realize movies do have music, but honestly it sounds really good to me.
You are indeed confused. Anything you hear, music, speech, soundFX, etc. is audio. You are listening to the audio signal!

I advise you to search the Internet to learn more on the basics of how audio equipment works, what differentiates good and bad, etc. Otherwise, almost everything you will read on ASR will flew over your head.
 

multisport4me

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TBH, I think a lot of the performance measurements in this sort of AVR review are kind of pointless for the listener. They're confirming that the money you've spent on the equipment has gone into engineered performance, but it's barely-human-perceptible performance. Almost every piece of kit is "good enough". So there probably wasn't that much point putting money into those bits. But if you're going to, may as well test you got something for the money.

And I guess if the performance is half-assed, you can infer that other things like reliability might be half-assed... It's a sign that someone doesn't know or care what they're doing.

It's a bit like the lap-time scoreboard in Top Gear - not that relevant to the average driver, but if you're going to spend a lot of money on a sports car, let's check it's a good one - you've bought a Lamborghini, not a lookalike kit car. But to be honest, most people shouldn't be spending lots of money on a car for its speed - that's not the most important thing about a car.

In AVRs, the main things that matter are functionality, reliability, lack of bugs, and power output. They're such intricate pieces of kit, you've got to concentrate on hoping to find one without some glaring functionality flaw. Only if you somehow manage to find multiple units that satisfy your needs, would I think it's reasonable to start looking at SINAD, crosstalk, distortion etc - only as tiebreaks.

It's probably only the Denon vs Marantz pairing where the measurements would be decisive because they're actually basically the same units in every other regard. And then it's clear that the Denons win. But could people tell the difference in a blind trial? Not sure.

All very good points. Except....its a $5,000 AV processor! Sorry, but I don't think anyone should have to "settle" at that price point. However, as you've pointed out, it is our reality right now. I cannot (or will not) spend $17k on a processor that also has issues so I guess I'm sticking with the 6700 for now.
 

sarumbear

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It's probably only the Denon vs Marantz pairing where the measurements would be decisive, because they're actually basically the same units in every other regard. And then it's clear that the Denons win. But could people tell the difference in a blind trial? Not sure.
Have you compared both companies matching products? Looked at insides?
 

KMO

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Assuming the process is done in the digital domain why would a DSP clip the signal? Couldn't you use the calculations at a much higher bit than the input bit depth? For instance, would a 32-bit floating point DSP clip a 20-bit signal while processing surround sound? A convolution reverb in a DAW does pretty complex processing and even working at 192kHz 24-bit, internal clipping is never an issue.

Internal processing at higher bit depths to gain inside one algorithm is straightforward.

The difficulty arises at the interconnects when chaining modules together. They likely don't offer extended dynamic range/bit depth on inputs and/or outputs. You'd need 2 or more modules contiguously connected that supported it to maintain a "wide" path. Lots of these DSP algorithms are proprietary black boxes, so manufacturers won't be able to do anything about that.
 

peng

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'updated' ESS DAC? You mean just 'ESS DAC', right? And did I miss the ESS model number somewhere? Would be interested to know.

Updated makes sense because the "updated" ES9010K2M's specs are not as good as the "outdated" AK4490 used in the original AV8805. There is no change in the measured SINAD because the DAC IC was never the bottleneck in the signal path to begin with. The bottleneck would appear to be the HDAM.

That HDAM related (just a suspect..) seems to have been finally fixed by the higher version of HDAM used in the SR8015, to the point its SINAD is as good as the Denon's, in fact a little better than Denon's, if preamp mode is not used.
 
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KMO

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Have you compared both companies matching products? Looked at insides?

No, I meant "the same units" in terms of the features, bugs, power I mentioned. So at that point it's worth checking the build+analogue engineering quality as the tie-break.

I'd love to have the luxury of lots of good non-buggy well-functioning receivers to choose from where I could use build+analogue quality to make a decision, but I've never been in that situation. It's always choosing the brand whose design misfeatures annoy me the least.

Catastrophic build quality may exclude them from the shortlist, but if something's the only thing doing what I need, I'll take it with adequate build quality.
 

sarumbear

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No, I meant "the same units" in terms of the features, bugs, power I mentioned. So at that point it's worth checking the build+analogue engineering quality as the tie-break.
Your point applies to every AVR on the market! Why point only to Denon & Marantz?
 

sarumbear

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The difficulty arises at the interconnects when chaining modules together. They likely don't offer extended dynamic range/bit depth on inputs and/or outputs. You'd need 2 or more modules contiguously connected that supported it to maintain a "wide" path. Lots of these DSP algorithms are proprietary black boxes, so manufacturers won't be able to do anything about that.
Have you seen the circuit diagram of a modern AVR? There are no "black boxes". The firmware of all digital elements are written (or at least customised) by the manufacturer.
 

truwarrior22

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I was one wanting to upgrade to Marantz AV line and I am no more after the first reviews and confirmed by these last reviews. Still waiting for a decent mid priced AV processor. I guess I will spend the money elsewhere.
What about Athem Audio? I would still take my SR8015 over any lower Denon model for music and HT. Denon is a little lean for me in the lower midrange when pure direct is engaged.
 

KMO

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Your point applies to every AVR on the market! Why point only to Denon & Marantz?

No, Denon & Marantz are effectively clones produced by the same engineering teams. A Denon vs Marantz comparison will be far closer than between different makers, so the build quality difference is more likely to tip the decision.

Have you seen the circuit diagram of a modern AVR? There are no "black boxes". The firmware of all digital elements are written (or at least customised) by the manufacturer.

The "black boxes" I'm talking about are the individual software modules, such as the Dolby Atmos decoder, or Dirac. The manufacturer will not be able to (or be permitted to) modify the Dolby Atmos decoder itself to give it different format inputs and outputs to accommodate a wider dynamic range. They'll have to work with what it supports.
 

truwarrior22

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Hmmmm, I am fairly confused with all these AVR reviews. I own the 7013, and I got it for a price so low it's not even funny. And it was basically new, just open box/customer return. The unit has no issues that are audible to me when I watch movies. I cant quite understand what I am missing based on poor measurements when it's not audio that I am listening to. Yes we realize movies do have music, but honestly it sounds really good to me. Would love to understand what I am losing.. Not to even upgrade, just to get a better grip on all of this.

Then again, this is my first AVR ever and that is probably the reason why.
Marantz is tuned to have a slightly “warmer” sounding tone. Denon will be a little clearer and slightly more punchy. This is all with pure direct enabled. All this could go out the door after Audyssey is enabled for I only compared with pure direct enabled. To me, measurement are to keep the manufactured honest and not stray away from the source too much.
 

Sprint

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I did, active studio monitors for decent stereo and a mini "no frills" home cinema for that 3D feeling... Works for me.
What do you use for home cinema - I mean speakers, AVR and amps?
 

sarumbear

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No, Denon & Marantz are effectively clones produced by the same engineering teams. A Denon vs Marantz comparison will be far closer than between different makers, so the build quality difference is more likely to tip the decision.
The "black boxes" I'm talking about are the individual software modules, such as the Dolby Atmos decoder, or Dirac. The manufacturer will not be able to (or be permitted to) modify the Dolby Atmos decoder itself to give it different format inputs and outputs to accommodate a wider dynamic range. They'll have to work with what it supports.
May I suggest checking the dictionary for the meaning of the word “clone”. It helps if words are used correctly.

I’m afraid you are misinformed about the second subject.
 

Dave Tremblay

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Yes and no. Yes in that if you don't use any processing then there is no reason the DAC in the AV processor could not work just as well.

No in that if you light up multiple pipelines like Room EQ, Dolby decoding, etc., then you need to allow headroom to make sure you don't have digital clipping. This will probably cost you up to 10 dB in dynamic range.

That would be kind of a lazy way to implement those features. You shouldn’t reduce gain in the processing unless you have a boost somewhere. If you’re not using those features, you should be able to max out DAC. And it seems, based on your measurements, that they aren’t doing this since you can hit line levels cleanly.
 

Pdxwayne

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Although it does not measured as well as a good DAC, will anyone sense a difference with real music playing as compared to using DAC + amp route? If there is a difference, what to listen for?
 

Dj7675

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Marantz is tuned to have a slightly “warmer” sounding tone. Denon will be a little clearer and slightly more punchy. This is all with pure direct enabled. All this could go out the door after Audyssey is enabled for I only compared with pure direct enabled. To me, measurement are to keep the manufactured honest and not stray away from the source too much.
I believe this is just internet lore that gets repeated so often it becomes accepted fact. I would be surprised if you could tell them apart in a double blind test.
 

Everett T

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I believe this is just internet lore that gets repeated so often it becomes accepted fact. I would be surprised if you could tell them apart in a double blind test.
I agree, the measurements don't indicate a warm sound and the slight (not even a .5db) roll off below 20hz is inaudible.
 

respice finem

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What do you use for home cinema - I mean speakers, AVR and amps?
Really nothing to write home about: Home cinema is almost a "too big" term, a "cinema for one" in a living room, approx 2m stereo triangle, 5.1.2 with "ancient" B&W CDM7 as main, and the rest (sub, surrounds and center) from Nubert. All built around a 55" Panasonic LCD TV, and driven by a Marantz AVR (NR1608), which is luckily a Denon inside, without the "dreaded" HDAMs. Additional room correction (for the sub only) is provided by the Anti-Mode 8033 s-II.
The idea to build a living room "cinema" occured to me, after my good old Myryad Mi120 stereo amp broke down. After a few years with this, I am relatively satisfied cinema-wise, but for stereo I wanted some "real Hi-Fi"... so I built a second system with studio monitors (Neumann KH 310A), the RME ADI-2 DAC, with my fanless HTPC as the main signal source. Maybe a strange solution, but it works.
 

giuppo77

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There is an aspect that I have never seen mentioned in the discussion (or I have just missed it). The 8805(A) has a DAC chip for each pair of channels, while lower priced AVRs have a single multi-channel DAC, if I am not wrong.

Would the 8805(A) offer more uniform and consistent performance over all the channels? Especially when they are all concurrently used? That is not to justify the 8805(A) high price, at the same time it may be a plus.

In my opinion it should not be forgotten that usually you do not buy an AVR/AVP to listen to two channels only. The multi-channel performance is fundamental in a product like that.
 
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