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Marantz AV7705 Home Theater Processor Review

SnakeOil

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There are many power amplifiers that have lower gain/input sensitivity for XLR inputs. Example: Marantz MM8077, McIntosh, Parasound, Bryston, and some older Emotiva's. Some has a selector switch, such as Bryston, though they seem to still recommend you use the lower sensitivity (typically 6 dB0 for the XLR inputs. Also different amps may have different gains, for example the Hypex based amps, an Purifi's have lower gain than your Emotiva amp. So you may not have the same issue with another amplifier.
Thanks Peng. So i believe the Hypex amps and the Purifi Amps are class D. Do you think the NAD M28 would have a lower gain. It is also a 7 channel Amp like the Emotiva
 

peng

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Thanks Peng. So i believe the Hypex amps and the Purifi Amps are class D. Do you think the NAD M28 would have a lower gain. It is also a 7 channel Amp like the Emotiva

Nope, according to the manual:

Voltage gain 29.5 dB ±0.3 dB, about the same as the XPA-7 gen 3. How far are you 60XTI from you mlp?
 

Pdxwayne

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How do you define 0.5 db difference? Over the full spectrum? Just a bunch of frequencies? And why 0.5 db as threashold?

I mean, you could hear a difference of 0.5 db at 1 kHz but not at 50 Hz. And you could hear that difference with single tones and not with a more complex music program.
Tone tests. See https://www.audiocheck.net/blindtests_level.php?lvl=0.5.

Give it a try with your own stereo setup and share with us how well you do.

My result with my stereo setup:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...my-gustard-x16-measurements.20679/post-690212
 

peng

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About 11 feet

Thank you, I am just trying to think of more reasons for the levels to bet to -12. Sensitivity is not really that high because 94 dB/2.83V/1m would be comparable to 91 dB/W/1m for 8 Ohm speakers. May be you have a lot of room gain, but it looks like the main reason is the 29 dB gain of the Emotiva, that's quite high for XLR input. If you were to use a matching MM8807, MM8055 or MM8003, the level would have been set to more like -6 whether you use XLR or RCA. Anyway, it not a big deal, just keep using RCA if -6 makes you feel better.
 

SnakeOil

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Thank you, I am just trying to think of more reasons for the levels to bet to -12. Sensitivity is not really that high because 94 dB/2.83V/1m would be comparable to 91 dB/W/1m for 8 Ohm speakers. May be you have a lot of room gain, but it looks like the main reason is the 29 dB gain of the Emotiva, that's quite high for XLR input. If you were to use a matching MM8807, MM8055 or MM8003, the level would have been set to more like -6 whether you use XLR or RCA. Anyway, it not a big deal, just keep using RCA if -6 makes you feel better.
Thanks. I’m sure the Marantz Amps would be a better match for the AV7706 but dont know how much audible difference there would be swapping the Emotiva for one of those just to use XLR
 

peng

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Thanks. I’m sure the Marantz Amps would be a better match for the AV7706 but dont know how much audible difference there would be swapping the Emotiva for one of those just to use XLR

You are welcome. To be clear, I am not suggesting you use another amp. In my opinion, Marantz amp or Emo amp (XPA) are not going to sound different, all else being equal. I am not aware of Emo's being designed to have their own "sound signature" anyway. The more powerful Emo amp may actually be a better match for your speakers. I just want you to know different amps may have different gains/input sensitivities for their RCA and XLRs so if you use a different amp you may not see the -12 level settings, that's all.

You can continue to use XLR and there isn't much wrong with the -12 level settings if it isn't actually lower. You can't tell because -12 is the minimum, but you can check for balance between all the channels using a SPL meter. It is obviously easier to just use RCAs.
 
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bigguyca

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Thank you, I am just trying to think of more reasons for the levels to bet to -12. Sensitivity is not really that high because 94 dB/2.83V/1m would be comparable to 91 dB/W/1m for 8 Ohm speakers. May be you have a lot of room gain, but it looks like the main reason is the 29 dB gain of the Emotiva, that's quite high for XLR input. If you were to use a matching MM8807, MM8055 or MM8003, the level would have been set to more like -6 whether you use XLR or RCA. Anyway, it not a big deal, just keep using RCA if -6 makes you feel better.

Please don't take offense as you did last time, but this needs to be corrected.

The specification for sensativity for the 60XTi is given as voltage sensativity. 94dB SPL out for 2.83V in (at a meter distance.) When voltage sensativity is specified then power input doesn't not enter into the basic calculation for SPL output. Only voltage is required. Power does enter how much power the power amplifier will have to deliver to the speakers, but this is a different question.

If the voltage sensativity specification is 94dB SPL out for 2.83V in, then the speakers is rated to deliver 94dB SPL out for 2.83V in. The impedance of the speaker is irrelevant in the output calculation. Here is some help with this.

In simple terms, Power = V^2/R

In this case: Power = 2.83^2/8 = 8/8 = 1W, this means that 2.83V into 8 ohm =1W.

You need to understand the difference between power sensativity, which is dB SPL out for 1W in, and voltage sensativity, which is dB SPL out for 2.83V in.

Your statement should read: "94 dB/2.83V/1m would be comparable to 94 dB/W/1m for 8 Ohm speakers."

If you want to consider power, then for 4 ohm speakers the power sensativity using the values from above would be, 91dB SPL/W/1m for a 4 ohm speaker.

Similarly for 2 ohm speakers the output would be, 88dB SPL/W/1m for 2 ohm speakers.

Also note that Ohm was a person, ohm is the unit.
 

giuppo77

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I could even try it.

At the same time, what does a test like that suggest? Being able to appreciate 0.5 db at 440 Hz, is that a kind of a good estimator to evaluate the hearing goodness? Or, from the other perspective, would you say that your hearing is somehow "better" because you are able to appreciate 0.5 db at 440 Hz with respect to somebody else having a threshold of 1 db? For sure it is at 440 Hz; and then?
 

bigguyca

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Thanks. I’m sure the Marantz Amps would be a better match for the AV7706 but dont know how much audible difference there would be swapping the Emotiva for one of those just to use XLR

You are fine using the RCA outputs of the AV7706 with the Emotiva. Your speakers have a high voltage sensativity, 94dB SPL rated. Your Emotiva requires little voltage output (and associated power) to drive your speakers. If your AV7706 has a per channel voltage setting of say -6dB using Audyssey, then you are in an excellent operating range for the AV7706. The distortion in particular will be very low at this settings.

The AV7706 and AV7705 are excellent products with quite good measurements if they are operated within their limits. Your case is likely unusual, normally the limits of the AV770X series are in limited clean maximum voltage output likely due to limitations in the design of the HDAM's used in these products. That certainly is not an issue with your system. In systems where Audyssey sets the output levels of the channels at below -2dB then the performance appears to measure quite well. It appears that at these lower levels the AV770X series controls output level using both analog and digital means. This allows optimization of areas such as the dBFS level sent to the DAC IC.

The Marantz multi-channel power amplifiers are only a small step up from the power amplifiers found in AVR's. In particular all of the power amplifier channels share one set of filter capacitors and one power transformer. There is also only one pair of output transistors per channel, which is the minimum. The only clear advantage of the Marantz multi-channel power amplifiers is that their appearance matches well with Marantz AVP's. Monoprice Monolith power amplifiers would be a better choice.

Again, you're fine with your setup. Enjoy.
 

Pdxwayne

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I could even try it.

At the same time, what does a test like that suggest? Being able to appreciate 0.5 db at 440 Hz, is that a kind of a good estimator to evaluate the hearing goodness? Or, from the other perspective, would you say that your hearing is somehow "better" because you are able to appreciate 0.5 db at 440 Hz with respect to somebody else having a threshold of 1 db? For sure it is at 440 Hz; and then?
And then? Show me your screen shot first. And then? Try other tests in the site and show me your screenshots. At least do the pitch one.

My other results here:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ds/how-good-is-your-hearing.20417/post-692530

If you can meet or beat my results, let's talk more.....
 
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SnakeOil

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You are fine using the RCA outputs of the AV7706 with the Emotiva. Your speakers have a high voltage sensativity, 94dB SPL rated. Your Emotiva requires little voltage output (and associated power) to drive your speakers. If your AV7706 has a per channel voltage setting of say -6dB using Audyssey, then you are in an excellent operating range for the AV7706. The distortion in particular will be very low at this settings.

The AV7706 and AV7705 are excellent products with quite good measurements if they are operated within their limits. Your case is likely unusual, normally the limits of the AV770X series are in limited clean maximum voltage output likely due to limitations in the design of the HDAM's used in these products. That certainly is not an issue with your system. In systems where Audyssey sets the output levels of the channels at below -2dB then the performance appears to measure quite well. It appears that at these lower levels the AV770X series controls output level using both analog and digital means. This allows optimization of areas such as the dBFS level sent to the DAC IC.

The Marantz multi-channel power amplifiers are only a small step up from the power amplifiers found in AVR's. In particular all of the power amplifier channels share one set of filter capacitors and one power transformer. There is also only one pair of output transistors per channel, which is the minimum. The only clear advantage of the Marantz multi-channel power amplifiers is that their appearance matches well with Marantz AVP's. Monoprice Monolith power amplifiers would be a better choice.

Again, you're fine with your setup. Enjoy.
Thank you for your detailed response. I was looking at an Audio website called Moon Audio. They have an article on Single ended vs balanced connections. It said in some situations it is better to use single ended then balanced Connections. Mine is probably one of them. So bigguyca you are right. Thanks Again!
 

peng

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Please don't take offense as you did last time, but this needs to be corrected.

The specification for sensativity for the 60XTi is given as voltage sensativity. 94dB SPL out for 2.83V in (at a meter distance.) When voltage sensativity is specified then power input doesn't not enter into the basic calculation for SPL output. Only voltage is required. Power does enter how much power the power amplifier will have to deliver to the speakers, but this is a different question.

If the voltage sensativity specification is 94dB SPL out for 2.83V in, then the speakers is rated to deliver 94dB SPL out for 2.83V in. The impedance of the speaker is irrelevant in the output calculation. Here is some help with this.

In simple terms, Power = V^2/R

In this case: Power = 2.83^2/8 = 8/8 = 1W, this means that 2.83V into 8 ohm =1W.

You need to understand the difference between power sensativity, which is dB SPL out for 1W in, and voltage sensativity, which is dB SPL out for 2.83V in.

Your statement should read: "94 dB/2.83V/1m would be comparable to 94 dB/W/1m for 8 Ohm speakers."

If you want to consider power, then for 4 ohm speakers the power sensativity using the values from above would be, 91dB SPL/W/1m for a 4 ohm speaker.

Similarly for 2 ohm speakers the output would be, 88dB SPL/W/1m for 2 ohm speakers.

Also note that Ohm was a person, ohm is the unit.

I did not take offense last time, just didn't appreciate your jumping on my typo (sort of) and made a big deal out of it, using derogatory remarks like "nonsense" (iirc). Regardless, I do respect and appreciate knowledgeable people such as yourself on this forum.

Yes, I understand everything you wrote in your post, simple power formula and Ohms law that anyone with the most basic knowledge in electrical principles, let alone EEs should know and understand!! I posted my own Excel based calculator before, it can accept inputs in either dB/2.83V/m or dB/W/m, and any impedance values. In fact, I would have explained the difference between the two, and how to adapt the numbers in the case of speakers with impedance other than 8 ohms and sensitivity specs in dB/2.83V/m for use with some of the online calculators that are based on 8 ohm impedance and sensitivity specs in dB/W/m for the sensitivity entry. I did not do so as Snakeoil did not ask for such, so I simply made my point the way I did, knowing that we are dealing with a 4 ohm speaker.

Before I posted, I checked the specs of the Motion 60 XTi so I knew its 4 ohm rated already. When I wrote 94 dB/2.83V/1m would be comparable to 91 dB/1W/8 Ohm speakers, I allowed for the fact that for 4 ohm impedance, 94 dB/2.83 V would be equivalent to 94 dB/2W, or 91 dB/1W, as simple as that. To me there is nothing to be corrected because it was not meant to be a general statement, but one specifically related to the 4 ohm Motion 60 XTi speakers. If you insist that it must be "corrected", no problem, but perhaps try "need clarification" or just ask questions such as, did you drop 3 dB to allow for the 2.83V/1m vs 1W/1m, when the impedance is 4 ohm? I guess that's not your style, that you seem to enjoy lecturing even when not asked for. I always thought you are probably an electronic designer of some sort but now I am beginning to think you may actually be a lecturer, or both. I also did teach EE very briefly in the early part of my career, got out early and have been a practicing licensed EE for many years so I guess I am a little thin skinned when being called out in a harsh way or even derogatory (not in this case) for obvious typos or omitting details that should have been included.

Also note that Ohm was a person, ohm is the unit.

Now that sounds a little ridiculous!! Ohm | unit of energy measurement | Britannica
You assume that I don’t know Ohm is the name of a person? This is an audio forum, not all are perfectionists. Oh, I could, but I am not going to ask you to do a spell check before posting just because I noticed something.

I think we should try and avoid taking things out of context and not to be too presumptuous. In this case, I still don't take offense, in fact what you have done (without being asked for) does help clarify my points and so others hopefully wouldn't take it on face value (like you seem to have done) and misunderstood what I was trying to explain. So thank you for that..
 
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Jon.kin96

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I’m actually generally curious as to why he insists on testing at 4volts instead of the 2.4 spec. IMO that does seem to be asking for unnecessary distortion.
 

peng

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The 2 V unbalanced, or 4 V balanced output level have been discussed multiple times. Amir has also given his rationale. You can do a search and pick the answer you most agree with.:(
 

Sal1950

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I’m actually generally curious as to why he insists on testing at 4volts instead of the 2.4 spec. IMO that does seem to be asking for unnecessary distortion.
A quick and dirty answer, if you want a comparable data base, you need to measure everyone with the same parameters. Using manufacturers specs will wind up very confused.
 

Blumlein 88

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A quick and dirty answer, if you want a comparable data base, you need to measure everyone with the same parameters. Using manufacturers specs will wind up very confused.
I understand why he does this. OTOH, were I maker of gear, and had I optimized it for 2.4 volts, and someone tests it at 4 volts and complains of the poor result, my reaction would be, "DUH, maybe you should read the manual or ask why I used a lower voltage target." As in maybe I make power amps, and my power amps have an input sensitivity of 2.4 volts for full rated output. Which guess what, Marantz power amps reach full power at 1.2 volts unbalanced, and 2.4 volts balanced input levels. Which then makes sense as to why the best output from the pre/pro is at 2.4 volts balanced.

Paying attention to such gain staging of a system can get a better result with lesser specced gear vs some poor mismatches. Of course not as good as better gear well matched. The point being you need to exercise a little care in matching speaker, amp and preamp for best possible results.
 
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Sal1950

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The point being you need to exercise a little care in matching speaker, amp and preamp for best possible results.
Yep, just posted in that other thread, my Adcoms with 1.25 v also fit just great with my 7703.
IMO it's a crazy unfortunate set of circumstances that there are no real measurement standards for HiFi gear.
The pro world is a little better but not a lot.
 

peng

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Why did you post Gene's comments? Do you agree with the comments and with Marantz's claim?

If you actually read people's posts in totality before responding you won't be asking such silly questions.:D
 

bigguyca

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If you actually read people's posts in totality before responding you won't be asking such silly questions.:D

The post you referenced is from Oct. 20, 2020. Why are you posting a reply almost a year later. Have you nothing else to do?

If the question was the silly and inappropriate why didn't you reply at least in the same calendar year?

I re-read my post and I don't see any horrible mistakes. The comments referenced in my post were at the bottom of your post. I didn't just jump to the bottom of your post to read them. Why would I do that? It wasn't clear why you included the comments in your original post since the comments didn't seem to directly relate to the remainder of your post.

Do you object to the content of my post? If so, what is wrong with it?

Give it a rest, or provide a coherent technical response. A year is a long time to respond to a post.
 
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