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Marantz AV20 13.4 Channel AVP Discussion

Wow, thanks. That understandably justifies some of the upcosts between the 20 and 30.


Most experts in the field will tell you that round the 90db SINAD mark passes a fully transparent signal.
Some may argue that but will need to prove it in a bias controlled DBT session. ;)
Thanks @Sal1950 … well, I would argue that anything over 80db is transparent, so I suppose I answered my own question ;)
 
Thanks @Sal1950 … well, I would argue that anything over 80db is transparent, so I suppose I answered my own question ;)
One thing folks need to remember is it's the complete source to speaker out that counts, not just the DAC's SINAD ;)
 
Has anyone here had a chance to compare the 8805/8807 to AV10/20? I read on Audioholics forum that at least the Atmos processing sounds better on the new Marantz processors. All subjective blah blah of course, no measurements to back up the claim, but wondering if anyone else has experienced same?
 
Has anyone here had a chance to compare the 8805/8807 to AV10/20? I read on Audioholics forum that at least the Atmos processing sounds better on the new Marantz processors. All subjective blah blah of course, no measurements to back up the claim, but wondering if anyone else has experienced same?


Measurements are quite different as above shows. Not sure what Atmos decoder 8805 uses. Could be older version.
 
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Measurements are quite different as above shows. Not sure what Atmos decoder 8805 uses. Could be older version.
Thanks. Yeah, I am aware of those measurements and indeed quite different. But, whether or not any of those differences are even audible is highly debatable. If there are truly audible differences in the processing, my guess is indeed we are dealing with a decoder and/or software/firmware difference. Unfortunately Amir’s reviews never go into such detail, which is a shame as we miss a significant portion of any objective observations that are related to the primary reason folks even purchase processors (the MCH decoding) … we may never know
 
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Thanks. Yeah, I am aware of those measurements and indeed quite different. But, whether or not any of those differences are even audible is highly debatable. If there are truly audible differences in the processing, my guess is indeed we are dealing with a decoder and/or software/firmware difference. Unfortunately Amir’s reviews never go into such detail, which is a shame as we miss a significant portion of any objective observations that are related to the primary reason folks even purchase processors (the MCH decoding) … we may never know
Trying to say that 90dB SINAD is distinguishable/audible compared to 107dB SINAD is a hard sell as unlikely people would pass double blind test on that basis with sufficient level of confidence. Although that is not a small difference so arguably some educated listeners might have a fair shot at it.

What distinguishes AV 10 are its features. That is where it leaves 8805 in the dust - provided you have use for these features.
 
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Trying to say that 90dB SINAD is distinguishable/audible compared to 107dB SINAD is a hard sell as unlikely people would pass double blind test on that basis with sufficient level of confidence. Although that is not a small difference so arguably some educated listeners might have a fair shot at it.

What distinguishes AV 10 are its features. That is where it leaves 8805 in the dust - provided you have use for these features.
Agreed … I dare anyone in a well controlled test to be able distinguish between 90 and 107 SINAD. Actually, I may even be as brave to say that limit is 80, if not lower

What additional “features” does the 10/20 have vs 880x? Ultimately what I care about is transparency and best decoding possible. Otherwise rest is fluff.

I am asking these questions because I am doubting the extra money for the 10/20 is worth it and the 880x may be perfectly fine for my ears. But for now I can’t prove it.
 
AV-10 is 15+4=19 channel AVP so quite a bit more than 8805's 13+2=15 channel capability. Has Dirac with ART to come by YE. Latest decoder pack. More modern design and significantly better GUI. Has 2 DAC filters.

Not sure if that matters to you, but ART alone could be the distinguishing feature.
 
Agreed … I dare anyone in a well controlled test to be able distinguish between 90 and 107 SINAD. Actually, I may even be as brave to say that limit is 80, if not lower

What additional “features” does the 10/20 have vs 880x? Ultimately what I care about is transparency and best decoding possible. Otherwise rest is fluff.

I am asking these questions because I am doubting the extra money for the 10/20 is worth it and the 880x may be perfectly fine for my ears. But for now I can’t prove it.
80 dB may be good if that’s for under all use or test condtions. If it is for 1kHz 44.1 kHz sampling test signal, 30-20 kHz, 2 V unbalanced then I would feel better with 90-95 dB.
 
Wow, thanks. That understandably justifies some of the upcosts between the 20 and 30.


Most experts in the field will tell you that round the 90db SINAD mark passes a fully transparent signal.
Some may argue that but will need to prove it in a bias controlled DBT session. ;)

The words "expert" and "science" have lost essentially all their credibility over the past five years. Please provide specific references to valid research or test results for your 'experts" claim.
 
The words "expert" and "science" have lost essentially all their credibility over the past five years. Please provide specific references to valid research or test results for your 'experts" claim.
Do you think it's only five years? Thought it would be more than that.

Any specific issues you have with 90dB mark? Like perhaps most people score 45dB or so on Kippel test?
 
Do you think it's only five years? Thought it would be more than that.

Any specific issues you have with 90dB mark? Like perhaps most people score 45dB or so on Kippel test?

To repeat, the issue is that no supporting information from, for example, experiments is provided to support the 90dB value. The member claiming the 90dB value needs to provide supporting data to back up the claim. Referring to "experts" is not supporting data. Might as well refer to "unnamed sources" or palm reading.

As a note, five or six guys sitting in room drinking beer and switching between electronics is not valid supporting data.
 
Do you think it's only five years? Thought it would be more than that.
For sure longer, I don't remember how long it's been since Peter Aczel wrote the words in my signature but a long time.
OTOH, just because the audiophools of this century gave up on believing in "reliable sources of scientific information" has never made their bowing at the alter of "subjective, I heard it, so it is so" reporting the correct path. The Hi Fi reporting engineers of Audio, Stereo Review, or High Fidelity, etc knew what they were talking about then and now. Today we've just learned a bit more.
 
To repeat, the issue is that no supporting information from, for example, experiments is provided to support the 90dB value. The member claiming the 90dB value needs to provide supporting data to back up the claim. Referring to "experts" is not supporting data. Might as well refer to "unnamed sources" or palm reading.

As a note, five or six guys sitting in room drinking beer and switching between electronics is not valid supporting data.
I am in the room with more than six guys and we are doing whiskey as men should do on occasions. But still don't quite understand your beef with 90db value. Perhaps you could elaborate? It's very easy to put the claim to the others. But what is really your claim?
 
AV-10 is 15+4=19 channel AVP so quite a bit more than 8805's 13+2=15 channel capability.

Has anyone here had a chance to compare the 8805/8807 to AV10/20? I read on Audioholics forum that at least the Atmos processing sounds better on the new Marantz processors. All subjective blah blah of course, no measurements to back up the claim, but wondering if anyone else has experienced same?

In the end neither I nor most anyone else knows whither the coding of things like the Atmos codex has changed much or any since the earlier processors were released? Maybe I'm missing something in the current SOTA in our processor measurements

I do wonder what the cost to manufacturers between the TOTL chips and Midrange chips is?
Are the TOTL chips only put in the expensive AV's just to justify a very high price, not because the chip itself is so expensive?
If your following my thinking ?

Wow, thanks. That understandably justifies some of the upcosts between the 20 and 30
My comment above referred more to the increase in manufacturing and sales costs of AV10 or 20 with 8 or 9 processors respectively vers on 2 in the AV30
Which may sound better is another kettle of fish. ;)
 
For sure longer, I don't remember how long it's been since Peter Aczel wrote the words in my signature but a long time.
OTOH, just because the audiophools of this century gave up on believing in "reliable sources of scientific information" has never made their bowing at the alter of "subjective, I heard it, so it is so" reporting the correct path. The Hi Fi reporting engineers of Audio, Stereo Review, or High Fidelity, etc knew what they were talking about then and now. Today we've just learned a bit more.
Wish we could pay the bass together, even if my play would be very sloppy after 30 years :p.
 
First of all, to those not interested or keen on the DAC chip itself do matter in some cases, please ignore my long post below.

There is something wrong with their logic though, if that's true, because

1) We all know labor (in this case research/design/development) is a big part in the manufacturing of devices such as AVPs. So if the manufacturing is willing to spend say twice as much on the "implementation" side of the DAC, and that would get "full capability" of a TOTL , that would be a strategy welcome by those who know enough to prefer DACs that are well implemented for the better results, so why limit the potential by a DAC chip that has a spec of only 93 dB SINAD?

2) If, based on your "implemented to its full capability..., than the TOTL chip used would not be performing at 95 dB, it would be at least 110 dB (usually higher) that TOTL chip could perform. Example: the DAC chip used in the AV10/20 is the reference class, but not TOTL class of ESS Sabre and it has SINAD spec of 120 dB. That's a lot better than 25 dB.

3) Conversely, if the manufacturer picked a chip that has SINAD spec as low as 93 dB such as the one used in the midrange Denon and Marantz AVRs/AVPs months after the AKM factory fire, than in theory the best those units could perform on the bench would be 93 dB. Since the Cinema 40 and the AVR-X4800H achieved as high as 92 dB using HDMI input, we can be reasonably sure that D+M's team did a decent job in their implementation, just too bad the DAC chip in this case has become the bottleneck. This seems to show in this case the DAC chip would be the source of distortion/noise, simply because the only change in the pre out signal path is the DAC chip, based on available information published by D+M.



(1) I would think you are right about that, but your key word "typically" is key here. In this case, again, the TI PCM5102A's SINAD spec is 93 dB, whereas the other parts up and downstream, such as the Volume control chip and the opamp chips have SINAD of over 100 dB, more like 105 to 110 range. So in this case, you would probably agree that using an improved DAC chip would not be a wasted effort.

This is why I mentioned before, the "implementation" being more important blablabla often seen on forum posts, sometimes by professional reviewers are often overrated. I highlighted often, because obviously it is more or less a case by case matter. For example, I would say in the case of Anthem AVM70 vs AVM90, implementation would be more important than choosing between the ES9038Q2M (the 70) and the ES9038Pro (the 90). In the case of the AV20, likely the AV30 if they use the same one in the C30, then again implementation should be the focus (my opinion only), whereas for the midrange AVRs, the likes of the popular AVR-X3800H, Cinema 50 through 70, focussing on the chip would have been welcome by many, like the so called SINAD chasers lol..

(2) One last thing, for others who are keen on getting the better DAC chips, I would like to point out that since Amir discovered that even using the PCM5102A (SINAD spec: 93 dB), some D+M AVRs managed to achieve SINAD as high as 97 dB, tells us D+M's team knows how to implement DACs to get the full or near full potential of the chip, and/or the 93 dB spec of the TI chip is probably a typical number, and it might be (now this is just my educated guess/speculation...) possible that D+M, as a large volume buyer, managed to get TI to sell them selected chips by something like sorted bin, so they were able to secure the same 5102A, but those sorted by having SINAD x dB better than the specified 93 dB Other than this last point though, my other points are based on logic, not facts and feelings, but strictly logic.

(1) For Marantz products remember that the HDAM's limit performance in most models. As a reference, the SR8015 had a SINAD of 99dB, the AV8805 and AV7705 were at about 90dB.

The SR8015 uses SA2 HDAM's with active current sources, the AV8805 (and SR7705} uses HDAM's with much lower quality resistor-based current sources. At best most Marantz products use SA2's with active current sources so the SINAD is like limited to 99 dB or so. Note the AV8805 and AV7705 also use lower quality components such as thick film resistors which add noise and distortion.

The AV10 uses SA3 HDAM's with active current sources and cascodes on some of the transistors plus other improvements such as four-layer circuit boards, a 12V power supply where all of the components in the schematic are actually present, which they aren't in the AV8805, and MELF resistors. The AV10 has a SINAD of about 107dB which may be limited by the volume control not the HDAM's.

(2) To improve the performance of the PCM5201A attenuate the signal digitally before the DAC by 6dB or so. Add a decent opamp after after the PCM5201A with 6dB of gain and the measured performance of the overall circuit will improve. See the PCM5201A datasheet for a graph of digital input level vs. THD plus noise. Performance of the PCM5201A is bad enough at higher digital input levels that the specifications are given at -1dBFS.
 
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AV-10 is 15+4=19 channel AVP so quite a bit more than 8805's 13+2=15 channel capability. Has Dirac with ART to come by YE. Latest decoder pack. More modern design and significantly better GUI. Has 2 DAC filters.

Not sure if that matters to you, but ART alone could be the distinguishing feature.
Thanks, appreciate that… note to be specific, I am actually interested in the AV20. No need for all those channels in the 10. As to ART, definitely a plus.

My concern is not the SINAD performance with any of these units, I doubt anyone could hear the difference, but the purported difference in decoding quality is concerning. But once again those observations seem limited and highly subjective. As I stated prior, we will likely really never know from an objective viewpoint, which is unfortunate.
 
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80 dB may be good if that’s for under all use or test condtions. If it is for 1kHz 44.1 kHz sampling test signal, 30-20 kHz, 2 V unbalanced then I would feel better with 90-95 dB.
Sure, never a bad thing to have more SINAD as a “just in case” to soothe our audiophilia nervosa ;)
 
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