Marantz AV20 13.4 Channel AVP Discussion

[peng]

48kHz is CD quality after all. From my own testing changing the bitrate of my source (a PC hooked up to an AVR), I haven´t noticed anything going way past it, so even if doable, I´d probably find no benefit.

Thanks for the response! Sometimes, going beyond is a vanity project.

44.1 kHz/16 bit is already CD quality, so 48 kHz already go further beyond the 20 kHz that requires 40 kHz sampling rate per Nyquist and that is widely considered human (normal ones) top end.

 

[stevenskl]

I´m wondering, what´s the purpose of listening to high-res music (like SACD or high-res online music), when the AVR or preamp downsample everything to 48khz anyway. So I can choose between "Direct" mode and get high-res....or use Audyssey/Dirac (or even just use an upmixer like Dolby Surround etc.) and my high-res music gets downsampled?

 

[peng]

I´m wondering, what´s the purpose of listening to high-res music (like SACD or high-res online music), when the AVR or preamp downsample everything to 48khz anyway. So I can choose between "Direct" mode and get high-res....or use Audyssey/Dirac (or even just use an upmixer like Dolby Surround etc.) and my high-res music gets downsampled?

Not much, other than I found that those contents tend to have better recording and mastering quality. One thing, it is possible that many of those HR recordings were done in 96 or higher kHz sampling rate, if so, that obviously would help. Down sampled to 48 kHz or even lower don't seem to degrade perceived sound quality, at least there don't seem to be any credible bling listening tests that showed there were audibly degraded sound quality due to 48 kHz sampling rate.

 

[chelgrian]

Not much, other than I found that those contents tend to have better recording and mastering quality. One thing, it is possible that many of those HR recordings were done in 96 or higher kHz sampling rate, if so, that obviously would help. Down sampled to 48 kHz or even lower don't seem to degrade perceived sound quality, at least there don't seem to be any credible bling listening tests that showed there were audibly degraded sound quality due to 48 kHz sampling rate.

Almost all classical recording is done in 24/96 or higher and a lot of people consume them as downloads these days mostly from sites such as Presto Classical or HD Tracks which are ultimately running on a platform developed by Orastream. Because of the additional value of higher sample rates a 24/96 recording that hasn't been down converted costs more than the same recording delivered in 24/48.

Despite what both recordists and audiophiles might say it's possible, for any pair of frequencies, to do mathematically perfect up sampling, for down sampling it's possible for it to be mathematically perfect below the Nyquist limit that the new sampling frequency places upon the signal. Computationally it's substantially easier to do perfect resampling if the two frequencies divide each other, that is to say it's easier to perfectly downsample 96KHz in to 48KHz than it is do it in to 44.1KHz.

However just because it's possible doesn't mean it's actually done all the time there are, sadly, a lot of broken sample rate converters out there.

 

[Oddball]

Almost all classical recording is done in 24/96 or higher and a lot of people consume them as downloads these days mostly from sites such as Presto Classical or HD Tracks which are ultimately running on a platform developed by Orastream. Because of the additional value of higher sample rates a 24/96 recording that hasn't been down converted costs more than the same recording delivered in 24/48.

Despite what both recordists and audiophiles might say it's possible, for any pair of frequencies, to do mathematically perfect up sampling, for down sampling it's possible for it to be mathematically perfect below the Nyquist limit that the new sampling frequency places upon the signal. Computationally it's substantially easier to do perfect resampling if the two frequencies divide each other, that is to say it's easier to perfectly downsample 96KHz in to 48KHz than it is do it in to 44.1KHz.

However just because it's possible doesn't mean it's actually done all the time there are, sadly, a lot of broken sample rate converters out there.

Good to know if we did not know already - always good to be reminded though. So what exactly that has to do with AV-20?

 

[welwynnick]

Good to know if we did not know already - always good to be reminded though. So what exactly that has to do with AV-20?

It probably down-samples everything to 48kHz when room correction is applied.
Inexcusable IMHO.
In the 20th century that was understandable, but not in the 21st.

 

[Oddball]

Lol, you just need to understand a much bigger picture than what your anger makes you see as it is.

And there is a choice of products that will cater to your needs so you do need to go to those threads.

This is 48kHz thread and no need to bash it. AV-20 is one of the best things that landed on this planet, albeit not for your.

 

[SIY]

Inexcusable IMHO.

Why? That seems more than good enough to be audibly transparent.

 

[welwynnick]

16/44.1 digital audio was the best we had in 1982, when there was no internet, only phone, fax, VHS, PAL and NTSC. Cars used carburettors and contact breakers, Argentina invaded the Falklands, and Ronald Regan was in power. That was a long time ago. Technology has advanced enormously everywhere - except digital audio?

 

[Oddball]

16/44.1 digital audio was the best we had in 1982, when there was no internet, only phone, fax, VHS, PAL and NTSC. Cars used carburettors and contact breakers, Argentina invaded the Falklands, and Ronald Regan was in power. That was a long time ago. Technology has advanced enormously everywhere - except digital audio?

Not sure what the point is. Digital audio is pretty much where it needs to be according to the market.

Now President Trump is in power and wants to invade different lands and is wreaking havoc to capital markets. Russia has invaded other lands and China has its eye on its apparently lost territories. Cars are electric and AI is after most jobs. That might to some sound like advancement.

 

[peng]

16/44.1 digital audio was the best we had in 1982, when there was no internet, only phone, fax, VHS, PAL and NTSC. Cars used carburettors and contact breakers, Argentina invaded the Falklands, and Ronald Regan was in power. That was a long time ago. Technology has advanced enormously everywhere - except digital audio?

Current technological advance would allow you to buy a car that can travel in air too, soon I assume,.. that doesn't mean there's no excuse for manufacturers not to produce only cars that can fly lol.. If Marantz made it known that because their model, say the AV11, AV21 etc., will run at 96 kHz with all channels running DLBC/ART, XT32 SubEQHT, but price will increase by $200, many potential buyers may be pissed as they are perfectly happy with 48 kHz, but there may also be many who would say there is no excuse to not do 192 kHz.

Anyway, I agree with Oddball, there's the Trinnov ones for those so keen on 96 kHz, though for those who want higher, they may have to be more patient.

 

[SIY]

16/44.1 digital audio was the best we had in 1982, when there was no internet, only phone, fax, VHS, PAL and NTSC. Cars used carburettors and contact breakers, Argentina invaded the Falklands, and Ronald Regan was in power. That was a long time ago. Technology has advanced enormously everywhere - except digital audio?

Cars had 4 wheels then, too. And surprisingly, we haven't had to increase that number in the intervening decades because that was sufficient for the purpose. As is 48k.

 

[kiwifi]

AV30 also in the pipeline per this video @ 7:43

View attachment 453013

Do we have an ETA for the AV30?

 

[masterhw]

Do we have an ETA for the AV30?

since some of the info has since been removed, I’m having to go off memory, but the only timeline I believe I saw put it at Q4 this year or Q1 next year. surprised me a bit that they’d mention a product 6 months or more away. Perhaps this was wrong.

 

[peng]

since some of the info has since been removed, I’m having to go off memory, but the only timeline I believe I saw put it at Q4 this year or Q1 next year. surprised me a bit that they’d mention a product 6 months or more away. Perhaps this was wrong.

Sounds like mainly replacing the C30’s power amo section and PS with balanced I/Os and a small PS. Shouldn’t take more than 6 months to do. My guess is October or a little later but well before Christmas.

 

[Vacceo]

Current technological advance would allow you to buy a car that can travel in air too, soon I assume,.. that doesn't mean there's no excuse for manufacturers not to produce only cars that can fly lol.. If Marantz made it known that because their model, say the AV11, AV21 etc., will run at 96 kHz with all channels running DLBC/ART, XT32 SubEQHT, but price will increase by $200, many potential buyers may be pissed as they are perfectly happy with 48 kHz, but there may also be many who would say there is no excuse to not do 192 kHz.

Anyway, I agree with Oddball, there's the Trinnov ones for those so keen on 96 kHz, though for those who want higher, they may have to be more patient.

Probably those extras will come in time simply because they will get as cheap as current stuff and Marantz will consider them a default element to add. Chances are the extra cost will come, down the line, with more complex and advanced HDMI. Probably 8K 120hz may not be a thing for media, but gaming may get there at some point.

 

[peng]

Probably those extras will come in time simply because they will get as cheap as current stuff and Marantz will consider them a default element to add. Chances are the extra cost will come, down the line, with more complex and advanced HDMI. Probably 8K 120hz may not be a thing for media, but gaming may get there at some point.

I think so too, especially if the put a pause on the channel count race. For most people, it isn't too easy to fit more than 13 speakers anyway, plus 2 to 4 subwoofers so hopefully they would cap it at 13 channels plus 2-4 independent sub outs for a long time and just add, or upgrade the DSP (as you said, when the price comes down) to please people who want to have the higher sampling rate such as 96 kHz or even 192 kHz, even native DSD256/512 etc.

 

[Vacceo]

I think so too, especially if the put a pause on the channel count race. For most people, it isn't too easy to fit more than 13 speakers anyway, plus 2 to 4 subwoofers so hopefully they would cap it at 13 channels plus 2-4 independent sub outs for a long time and just add, or upgrade the DSP (as you said, when the price comes down) to please people who want to have the higher sampling rate such as 96 kHz or even 192 kHz, even native DSD256/512 etc.

On the channel count, I think designs like Sigberg´s Sarannas effectively combine a subwoofer and a speaker in the same pack, and those are incredibly interesting for options like positional bass.

 

[peng]

May/June 2025 sees the launch of the Marantz AV 20 and AMP 20 home theatre separates.
Full specs to be released (will update upon availability). Both units seem to approximately match the AV 10/AMP 10 but at a reduced channel count.
They will launch at $5,500 $6000 USD each.
Also named in the launch webinar are the previously rumoured AV 30 and AMP 30.
View attachment 448965
View attachment 448963
View attachment 448966
View attachment 448964
View attachment 448972


Interesting seeing ASR directly acknowledged. Claimed AV 20 SINAD of 110 dB!View attachment 448973

Just noticed that Amir has not updated that chart, the AV7705’s 92 dB was at half the output, that is or 2.4 V balanced, or 1.2 V unbalanced. At 4 V balance it only managed around 75 dB.

I expect the AV30 to achieve something like 105 dB based on the C30’s.

 

[Stinga]

ProfP, what is the sinad of the c30?
Al