Marantz AV20 13.4 Channel AVP Discussion

[dlaloum]

2 things:

1) What isn't made in China these days?
2) The DSP is the main differentiator (and the most likely reason ART is not coming to current gen of PAC).

Marantz AV20:

• SHARC+ Griffin Lite XP DSP (2000 MIPS) <- this is the same chip found in the 3800 and the reason why every machine w/this chip can do Dirac ART!
• 9 x ESS ES9018K2M (2CH 32 bit DAC chips), 127dB DNR, -120dB THD+N
• 4 x capacitors (totals 40,000 µF)

https://www.audionet.com.tw/thread-18349-1-1.html


Integra DRX8.4:

• Cirrus Logic CS49844A
• TI Aureus 4-core 32-bit DSP TMS320DA808 (D808K013DPTP5) <-for Dirac, AccuEQ
• 2 x ES9026PRO (8CH 32 bit DAC chips), 124dB DNR, -110dB THD+N
• 2 x 18,000 µF capacitors

https://www.audionet.com.tw/thread-16025-1-1.html

The DSP in the DRX8.4 is at least 10 years old and can even be found in my last AVR, the Pioneer SC-LX701! There's no question in my mind that PAC needs to up its DSP game if it wants to join the ART party!

https://www.hi-av.net/modules/article/view.article.php?564

I would simply point you to Dirac's own quote - anything capable of running DLBC can run ART.
The corollary being that the number of filters available may be limited - so on the D&M devices you can have up to 98 filters, how many would be possible on the O/I platform is unknown.

But in my X4800 based 5.2.4 setup optimal setups are trending around 51 to 54 filters - with those experiments using 90+ filters being of lesser objective quality.

 

[EWL5]

I would simply point you to Dirac's own quote - anything capable of running DLBC can run ART.

Don't you find it odd that in addition to PAC AVRs, long-time DLBC user Arcam is still not capable of ART?

Is there any chance that the quote from Dirac was very specific to Denon/Marantz?

 

[dlaloum]

Don't you find it odd that in addition to PAC AVRs, long-time DLBC user Arcam is still not capable of ART?

Is there any chance that the quote from Dirac was very specific to Denon/Marantz?

Harman got rid of the software engineering teams that integrated Lexicon, then Harman, and then Arcam/JBL...

That led to very slow resolution of bug fixes - and non existent progress on new features.

The recent release of the JBL MA series implies they must have hired a new development team.... and now they have the D&M team.

The quote was from an interview about 2 years ago, the StormAudio platform had just been released, and there was talk of what other platforms could potentially support ART.

I didn't have the impression at the time that it was limited to any specific platform - more an indicator as to what platforms would be capable of supporting ART if the manufacturer chose to do the required integration work.

 

[EWL5]

Harman got rid of the software engineering teams that integrated Lexicon, then Harman, and then Arcam/JBL...

That led to very slow resolution of bug fixes - and non existent progress on new features.

The recent release of the JBL MA series implies they must have hired a new development team.... and now they have the D&M team.

The quote was from an interview about 2 years ago, the StormAudio platform had just been released, and there was talk of what other platforms could potentially support ART.

I didn't have the impression at the time that it was limited to any specific platform - more an indicator as to what platforms would be capable of supporting ART if the manufacturer chose to do the required integration work.

Funny you mention JBL as not even the newer MA series is capable of DLBC!

 

[dlaloum]

Funny you mention JBL as not even the newer MA series is capable of DLBC!

Well with the addition of D&M to the Harman/Samsung stable, why would they invest in further development of the MA series...?

My bets are on seeing the AV10/20 reappear with a new set of clothes under the JBL Synergy brand. (which will almost certainly mean the demise of Logic7/Logic16 - sadly), and also perhaps under the Mark Levinson brand...

On the other hand, it remains an open question as to what will happen with all these brands... the purchase of the Sound United gives Harman an excellent engineering design team... but historically those teams have been rapidly decimated after being absorbed by Harman.

 

[chelgrian]

Well with the addition of D&M to the Harman/Samsung stable, why would they invest in further development of the MA series...?

My bets are on seeing the AV10/20 reappear with a new set of clothes under the JBL Synergy brand. (which will almost certainly mean the demise of Logic7/Logic16 - sadly), and also perhaps under the Mark Levinson brand...

On the other hand, it remains an open question as to what will happen with all these brands... the purchase of the Sound United gives Harman an excellent engineering design team... but historically those teams have been rapidly decimated after being absorbed by Harman.

Indeed I’m not hopeful at all of the D&M team being left to get on with it. Given the volume is simply not there anymore I do wonder if the reasonably priced AVR/AVP is in the way out and we’ll be left with just the expensive boutique brands.

 

[Oddball]

Well with the addition of D&M to the Harman/Samsung stable, why would they invest in further development of the MA series...?

My bets are on seeing the AV10/20 reappear with a new set of clothes under the JBL Synergy brand. (which will almost certainly mean the demise of Logic7/Logic16 - sadly), and also perhaps under the Mark Levinson brand...

On the other hand, it remains an open question as to what will happen with all these brands... the purchase of the Sound United gives Harman an excellent engineering design team... but historically those teams have been rapidly decimated after being absorbed by Harman.

D&M is definitively not a boutique brand and they probably deserve a different treatment that some of the famous but much lower volume brands.

With all that, perhaps D&M engineering team did not do themselves a favour designing their current line up so greatly as they did. Where do you go from there and how much R&D is really needed when you are a market leader by features and price by significant margin. I personally have no further requests from D&M except to build a more flexible architecture in the high end with more channels overall and at least 6-8 of them assignable. Otherwise, don't see 3800H aging any time soon, especially when competition is virtually non-existent.

A separate question is how to move forward with room EQ. Lower pricing for Dirac would certainly be welcomed by many. D&M should figure out a way to get there.

Hopefully Harman/Samsung will acknowledge accomplishments of D&M team and leave them alone. Their cost is a rounding error on their significant balance sheets, yet will hopefully ensure the brand dominance for years to come.

 

[Oddball]

Excellent report, thank you! Being a prior owner of a 7703 myself and current AV20 I find myself in full agreement with you in the areas I have experience. Not sure I ever would have gotten rid of my 7703 if it hadn't been killed "graveyard dead" by a lightning strike, loved that pre/pro.
I've got a number of things going on around here and still haven't gotten round to even a full Audy/Enhanced Editor calibration, just did a quick manual spl & timing adjustment with a Radioshack meter and tape measure, pure ole school style.
I really want to try the latest A1 build when I have some time. Also maybe a (free trial) test of Dirac ART but it's at the bottom of the list, I find it's cost a bit obscene for a piece of DRC software. JMHO

We are all ears Sal - and looking forward to your impressions on hopefully both A1 and ART.

 

[Ssmokeyy]

I wonder if the av10 has as much China gear in it. I know everything is made in China. Just seems like a lie tonour faces when Phil Jones is like we make, build everything in a Japan factory. And he says it like 40 times. Used to be 6k was alot of money. Now I guess everyone has that to pass around.

 

[Oddball]

I wonder if the av10 has as much China gear in it. I know everything is made in China. Just seems like a lie tonour faces when Phil Jones is like we make, build everything in a Japan factory. And he says it like 40 times. Used to be 6k was alot of money. Now I guess everyone has that to pass around.

Phil is marketing the product and was not specific as to the origin of the parts. We "make" is a classic statement that is entirely not specific. D&M have been around for a while and trust they figured out how to maximize value from their supply chain - as @peng pointed out. Would be interesting to know if Trinnov and Storm are not following the similar path. They would have a margin to potentially accomodate more expensive parts, but then might have opted to keep the margin for other use.

Parts for absolutely critical infrastructure like e.g. power plants come in big part from China. People were scratching their heads 20 years ago, but eventually seems to be all working well. Manufacturing process can be good or bad regardless of the country of origin. It primarily depends on the design/specs, company, controls and rigor they deploy. But certainly cost of labour, real estate etc. will be greatly different for various countries. I have no issues with well manufactured products in China or Switzerland.

Would not really go for Chinese cars yet, but they are probably going to be pretty good pretty soon. When I bought my first Samsung TV, Samsung was just another no name brand selling at the same price levels as Goldstar etc. They have come a long way to make premium TVs that dominate the market, albeit still not having common business sense to adopt DV.

As far as design, I hope that D&M picked parts that will last for 20K or more hours as I plan to keep that unit for a long time.

 

[chelgrian]

I wonder if the av10 has as much China gear in it. I know everything is made in China. Just seems like a lie tonour faces when Phil Jones is like we make, build everything in a Japan factory. And he says it like 40 times. Used to be 6k was alot of money. Now I guess everyone has that to pass around.

Yes they will buy components wherever they can get the components cheapest for the required specification.

Whenever a company says something is made in a particular country it is understood to mean that final assembly is carried out in that country unless they explicitly say something different.

Even if you buy a far more expensive boutique brand many of the components will be made in the PRC because that is the only source of them and no one else makes them.

 

[masterhw]

China can make fantastic components, Japan no longer has a monopoly on that. China can also make real crap. It’s on you when sourcing to do your job and know what you’re getting - I’m sure D&M have done so.

 

[peng]

China can make fantastic components, Japan no longer has a monopoly on that. China can also make real crap. It’s on you when sourcing to do your job and know what you’re getting - I’m sure D&M have done so.

True, people old enough might remember what they said about made in Japan Toyota cars in the 60’s and then Korea made Hyundai and Kia in the early 90’s. Since 10-15 years ago, people started to accept that Toyota, Hyundai even Kia = high quality and reliability, let alone Lexus, Genesis, Acura.

In a way, D+M is just being practical and business smart, to ignore politics, and go for values, for the benefits of both themself and their customers.

 

[Oddball]

True, people old enough might remember what they said about made in Japan Toyota cars in the 60’s and then Korea made Hyundai and Kia in the early 90’s. Since 10-15 years ago, people started to accept that Toyota, Hyundai even Kia = high quality and reliability, let alone Lexus, Genesis, Acura.

In a way, D+M is just being practical and business smart, to ignore politics, and go for values, for the benefits of both themself and their customers.

Cars are designed in their home countries but manufactured generally in their factories covering the respective continent. Parts and design do differ due to different local rules.

The small country where I happen to live in is the home of some of the biggest EU car factories. KIA is in the city I live in and they do have extremely serious operation there. Some of their cars are amazing and perform up to specs even after 300K. Not my cup of tea but they do deliver what they are made to do even at that age - and what I hear from professional drivers, at reasonable cost. Can't think of driving my MB to 300K at reasonable cost.

Some Porsche models (like Cayenne) are also produced here. Volkswagen, PSA Peugeot Citroën, and Jaguar Land Rover are also producing their cars in Slovakia.

 

[Ssmokeyy]

Pics

 

[Hyacin]

Absolutely loving the sound coming out of this thing (EVO AcoustiX for now, DIRAC ART over the holidays) - but the HDMI issues remind me of my early days with my X6700H. I can't believe this, when this was supposed to be a "full 8k everywhere!" upgrade. Same cables everywhere that were all working just great with the X6700H _yesterday_, so while I will start replacing them one by one, they are absolutely capable of what I am asking of them ... this reeks of firmware bug. 4k/60 works fine from Shield with the HDMI port on the Marantz end set to Enhanced or 8K Enhanced (well, sometimes), but then as soon as I enable DV you can see from the display it's dropping the connection over and over and over and over ... looks like a handshake thing to me. Why can't things just work? Especially at this price point.

Hoping someone else has had and resolved similar issues. Not finding a whole lot searching various AV sites or the internet as a whole.

 

[ryanosaur]

Absolutely loving the sound coming out of this thing (EVO AcoustiX for now, DIRAC ART over the holidays) - but the HDMI issues remind me of my early days with my X6700H. I can't believe this, when this was supposed to be a "full 8k everywhere!" upgrade. Same cables everywhere that were all working just great with the X6700H _yesterday_, so while I will start replacing them one by one, they are absolutely capable of what I am asking of them ... this reeks of firmware bug. 4k/60 works fine from Shield with the HDMI port on the Marantz end set to Enhanced or 8K Enhanced (well, sometimes), but then as soon as I enable DV you can see from the display it's dropping the connection over and over and over and over ... looks like a handshake thing to me. Why can't things just work? Especially at this price point.

Hoping someone else has had and resolved similar issues. Not finding a whole lot searching various AV sites or the internet as a whole.

I just bought all new RuiPro HDMIs when I installed mine. Nothing has been amiss since.

The Lady looked at me askance when 3 HDMIs and 9 WBC XLRs showed up one day.

 

[Hyacin]

I just bought all new RuiPro HDMIs when I installed mine. Nothing has been amiss since.

The Lady looked at me askance when 3 HDMIs and 9 WBC XLRs showed up one day.

The trick is to answer the door before she sees there is a package, then swap the cables in as fast as possible.

Mine'll have questions when I'm dead and gone and she finds all the 'not working' cables I've pulled out over the years in the garage in various boxes and crates!

I was very lucky to have a Dr. HDMI 8k sitting around doing nothing from some issues I had with my C2 Ultra and a really long fiber HDMI run (since upgraded to VisionMaster Max) - so I dug that out of said garage and ended up with it between the Shield and the AV20 inserting a custom EDID advertising 8k60 'plus all the things' and thank the maker it is now working! Hopefully the same kind of 'fix' isn't needed for the Series X at 4k/120 or I may need a second Dr. HDMI :-/

I think that alone though further confirms these cables are fine, I was able to watch some Disney+ DV at 4k for a couple minutes with no blips (just like I was able to yesterday with the X6700H with the same cables) - seems there is perhaps an HDCP handshake bug at work here or something :-/

 

[ryanosaur]

The trick is to answer the door before she sees there is a package, then swap the cables in as fast as possible.

Mine'll have questions when I'm dead and gone and she finds all the 'not working' cables I've pulled out over the years in the garage in various boxes and crates!

I was very lucky to have a Dr. HDMI 8k sitting around doing nothing from some issues I had with my C2 Ultra and a really long fiber HDMI run (since upgraded to VisionMaster Max) - so I dug that out of said garage and ended up with it between the Shield and the AV20 inserting a custom EDID advertising 8k60 'plus all the things' and thank the maker it is now working! Hopefully the same kind of 'fix' isn't needed for the Series X at 4k/120 or I may need a second Dr. HDMI :-/

I think that alone though further confirms these cables are fine, I was able to watch some Disney+ DV at 4k for a couple minutes with no blips (just like I was able to yesterday with the X6700H with the same cables) - seems there is perhaps an HDCP handshake bug at work here or something :-/

HDMI is a fickle, shallow b!tch. Fortunately, buying her new jewelry seems to satisfy her.




*knocks on wood, crosses fingers, sacrifices a virgin and prays deeply and humbly to the Gods of Interconnects that I did not offend them

 

[ieatfishburritos]

Pics

2 Jianghai filter caps, I think that's fine personally. I can't read the specs on the blurry photo. I'm assuming all the smaller caps to the right are Nichicon, Elna, or a Japanese brand, or are they also Jianghai? I've not seen Jianghai in the black and gold packaging with the for audio label, maybe these are made to higher specifications for Marantz? Jianghai isn't a bad brand and are fine for power filtering applications.