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Marantz AV20 13.4 Channel AVP Discussion
- Thread starter masterhw
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Sure, why not, that’s a relatively low price for a psychological warm fuzzy, but not because there is an audible difference
welwynnick
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Since Amir's measurements on the AV10 were similar to Marantz, I think it's fair to assume that Marantz' claims for the AV20 are reasonably reliable.
TemploAztlan
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I still don't see this claimed AV20=110db SINAD in the post or anywhere ???
scotchrocks
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It’s in the first post by @masterhw in the screenshot he quoted above. It’s the slide with the ASR AV10 chart with the AV20 added by Marantz in the top left with 110 dB SINAD.
I may be blind but I still can't find it.
Is this the info you refer to? Don't know where @masterhw got the info he photoshopped into that graphic but the AV20 hasn't been benchtested by ASR or anywhere else I'm aware of. Don't mean to be difficult but as a AV20 owner myself I would love to be able to find the source of that measurement ???
Kool,, AFAIK then it's still someones error. I'd be quite happy to be proved wrong.
I'm considering replacing my Bryston BR-20 preamp with this Marantz AV 20. I think I would benefit from the room correction more than the benefits of the SNR etc that is better on the bryston. I do have 2 subs also in the system that I'd like to get better integration of and I do watch a lot of TV in the system.
Anyone else replaced a 2 channel preamp with this?
Anyone else replaced a 2 channel preamp with this?
scotchrocks
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I had a scary issue yesterday where my AV20 refused to boot up; it would turn on, and after 15 seconds or so, the porthole display would show 'Wait >>>>>' like it was updating firmware, and repeat the 5 arrows. I called support today (short wait time and helpful) and they provided the factory reset button combination to hold:
Dimmer + Setup + Power
This restored things back to factory settings. I had to redownload firmware updates and set things up fresh again, but I'm glad I don't have to ship it back for repair. My guess is the firmware auto-updated and maybe a power blip caused it to reset during the update. I turned off auto-update going forward!
Since the AV20 was out of commission yesterday, I had replaced it temporarily with my old AV7703. I hadn't used this preamp before in my theater set up as I previously used an SR7012 for this space. Some interesting observations going back to the AV7703 vs. the AV20:
Dimmer + Setup + Power
This restored things back to factory settings. I had to redownload firmware updates and set things up fresh again, but I'm glad I don't have to ship it back for repair. My guess is the firmware auto-updated and maybe a power blip caused it to reset during the update. I turned off auto-update going forward!
Since the AV20 was out of commission yesterday, I had replaced it temporarily with my old AV7703. I hadn't used this preamp before in my theater set up as I previously used an SR7012 for this space. Some interesting observations going back to the AV7703 vs. the AV20:
- A1 Evo Neuron: Since I couldn't use Dirac, I decided to try A1 Evo Neuron instead of regular Audyssey. The setup of getting it to run was pretty confusing, but if you're comfortable with computers, you can probably figure it out. I used just the regular Audyssey mic, and after running optimization, the sound quality was overall very good, definitely an improvement over standard Audyssey. I tried a few different target curves, but landed on the Harman Kardon one. I like how with Audyssey/A1, you're able to apply the target curve for upper frequencies but not apply room response corrections. I don't believe you can do that with Dirac, where the room corrections and the target are bundled together as on or off depending on the curtain setting.
I think the biggest area of difference was bass response, but it's not really a fair comparison. Since the AV7703 only has two sub outs, I was limited in testing bass response with just the two front subs versus using all three subs with my AV20 and Dirac. With the two subs, bass was decent, but it felt thinner and less even than Dirac ART. This could be because I didn't have the third sub, or the target curve was different, or a bunch of other reasons, but at least in the couple hours I spent testing it, that was the area that I think ART helped the most in my room.
This isn't to say A1 couldn't be as good as Dirac, I just didn't have enough time to test it out and tweak it since I'm in the process of restoring the AV20. I would say that it's definitely worth checking out, and it's possible you may be even more happy with A1's results than Dirac. You also get to keep the dynamic EQ functions and dynamic volume functions that are built in to Audyssey. If you have serious challenges with bass response, then maybe ART will prove worth it like it does in my room, but if you're hesitant to spend money to upgrade to a receiver that supports Dirac or spend the money on a Dirac license, I'd highly recommend trying A1 first.
I think the biggest challenge for more widespread adoption of A1 is the usability of the software. If it could be integrated into a single app UI without needing to run scripts, configure REW, etc. that would make it much more approachable for most users. Anyways, hats off to @OCA for developing this incredible tool!
- Dolby Surround Upmixing: I recall reading about improved Dolby processing in the AV20, so I tested this out a bit. At least for upmixing from stereo, the AV7703 upmixed to Dolby Surround poorly (echoey and artificial). I don't recall my SR7012 upmixing sounding like this, so I'm thinking that the upmix algorithm changed around that time (2017 or so). I don't think there's a difference between the AV20 upmix and SR7012, though. I don't use Dolby Surround anyway as I prefer either stereo or Auro-3D instead. As far as native Dolby Atmos tracks for movies, I didn't hear any difference in processing.
- XLR Noise: I had ground loop issues with my SR7012 and Hypex amps previously using RCA connections. The AV7703 with XLR doesn't have those issues, similar to the AV20. There was some very slight hiss/noise with the AV7703 that isn't there with the AV20 however, so I guess the improved noise floor does help a bit.
- Overall Sound Quality: The AV7703 is no slouch! I guess I don't have golden ears, but it still sounded good to me even with much lower SINAD than the AV20. The XLR noise fixes and EQ/room correction settings are far more impactful. I wouldn't be confident I'd be able to tell the difference in a blinded test with equal settings.
Thanks for the great feedback! Neuron was the first A1 iteration that completely bypassed the Audyssey interface and could upload its own custom FIR filters directly to the receiver. That alone was a major breakthrough—made possible largely thanks to a gaming software developer with an extraordinary ability to understand low-level code and system behavior.
At the time, though, the optimization algorithms were still modest compared to where A1 is today. Even so, they already outperformed traditional automated calibration because they relied on the virtually unlimited processing power of REW running externally, instead of being constrained by the very limited DSP inside an AVR. Systems like Audyssey and Dirac have to prioritize efficiency over raw performance due to those hardware limits.
Since then, John has continuously improved REW, and in parallel I’ve massively expanded the algorithms and customization options as my understanding of the firmware matured. The result is A1 Evo AcoustiX - the latest iteration which goes far beyond anything you had before. Ease of use isn’t even the biggest improvement; the results themselves will likely far exceed your expectations.
Give it a try
At the time, though, the optimization algorithms were still modest compared to where A1 is today. Even so, they already outperformed traditional automated calibration because they relied on the virtually unlimited processing power of REW running externally, instead of being constrained by the very limited DSP inside an AVR. Systems like Audyssey and Dirac have to prioritize efficiency over raw performance due to those hardware limits.
Since then, John has continuously improved REW, and in parallel I’ve massively expanded the algorithms and customization options as my understanding of the firmware matured. The result is A1 Evo AcoustiX - the latest iteration which goes far beyond anything you had before. Ease of use isn’t even the biggest improvement; the results themselves will likely far exceed your expectations.
Give it a try
Excellent report, thank you! Being a prior owner of a 7703 myself and current AV20 I find myself in full agreement with you in the areas I have experience. Not sure I ever would have gotten rid of my 7703 if it hadn't been killed "graveyard dead" by a lightning strike, loved that pre/pro.
I've got a number of things going on around here and still haven't gotten round to even a full Audy/Enhanced Editor calibration, just did a quick manual spl & timing adjustment with a Radioshack meter and tape measure, pure ole school style.
I really want to try the latest A1 build when I have some time. Also maybe a (free trial) test of Dirac ART but it's at the bottom of the list, I find it's cost a bit obscene for a piece of DRC software. JMHO
So i got my av 20 and had to open it up. I have a integra drx 8.4 now and when I opened it up, I found parts I would like to see. Now this av 20 cost 50% more than the integra I was shocked when I opened it up and found..... China parts all over the inside of this guy. Over half of the caps are China brands. Seems kind of funny a Japanese company Japan made product would have China parts all over it. Now I wonder how long this guy will last.
The flagship onkyo/integra's are definitely incredible value... D&M are priced more in line with the main marketplace.
If only O/I had joined the ART party...
Right integra should get it min. Back to marantz. For 6k all of the parts should be from Japan when marantz as a company states made in Japan from a factory in Japan. Even if it was lower Japan quality I would think it would be better than China branded parts. I know China makes every thing but hurt my feeling finding this out from marantz
As long as Marantz approved their use, based on specs/measurements, not just costs.... It may help you feel a little better if you keep in mind you might have to pay a lot more had Marantz not used those China branded parts, for the same quality in terms of specs.
2 things:
1) What isn't made in China these days?
2) The DSP is the main differentiator (and the most likely reason ART is not coming to current gen of PAC).
Marantz AV20:
- SHARC+ Griffin Lite XP DSP (2000 MIPS) <- this is the same chip found in the 3800 and the reason why every machine w/this chip can do Dirac ART!
- 9 x ESS ES9018K2M (2CH 32 bit DAC chips), 127dB DNR, -120dB THD+N
- 4 x capacitors (totals 40,000 µF)
Integra DRX8.4:
- Cirrus Logic CS49844A
- TI Aureus 4-core 32-bit DSP TMS320DA808 (D808K013DPTP5) <-for Dirac, AccuEQ
- 2 x ES9026PRO (8CH 32 bit DAC chips), 124dB DNR, -110dB THD+N
- 2 x 18,000 µF capacitors
The DSP in the DRX8.4 is at least 10 years old and can even be found in my last AVR, the Pioneer SC-LX701! There's no question in my mind that PAC needs to up its DSP game if it wants to join the ART party!
https://www.hi-av.net/modules/article/view.article.php?564
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