Marantz AV10 AV Processor Review

[HiFi 5.2]

Look at my signature. First system absolutely zero hiss or noise even with ear-on-the-speakers. SINAD 107dB. Second system significant hiss out of speakers, and when noise floor is below 40dB, becomes slightly audible at MLP 2.5m away. SINAD 100dB.

Difference in SINAD of 7dB is not the reason for the hiss. It is combination of AVR/Amps and speakers. Same happened in two different locations/countries, so it's most likely not power related in this case.

People pull their hair over the hiss and many threads out there if you want to get into them. I gave up and just make sure that listening volume is sufficiently loud to mask the hiss.

I hear what you're saying but when you're paying this amount of money, the equipment should be quiet. I have asked multibel people and I have got the same answer from every one of them. They said it is possible to make a pre-amplifier or amplifier quiet but they don't want to put in the parts that is necessary to do so. I am not against manufacturers earning money, but when you pay this amount of money for equipment, our standards should be much higher we should not just say it's OK.

 

[peng]

I'm pretty sure that SINAD has something to do with if any noise is coming out of your speakers

That could be, but it depends. If SINAD is already at >100, like the AV10, then chances are much greater than hiss is due to other things including your extreme example of ear to tweeter. Back to the AV10's 107 dB SINAD, let's say even just 103 dB, worse case, you might hear hiss with again, "ear to tweeter" (almost touching) and room noise is exceptionally low that is rarely the case. But then, which AVP out there can do better than the AV10 in that sense?

One of the most expensive AVP ASR has measured is the $17,000 Trinnov, and the AV10 is better in both SINAD and DR, in fact even a Denon AVR did better. In my opinion, the AV10, or any available AVP regardless of price is not going to be totally silent under any environment (speaker sensitivity, ambient noise, volume at idling, ears super sensitive to hiss and other electronics related noise), but the AV10 is among the best in class, or even regardless of price, in terms of noise currently one can buy.

 

[Oddball]

Just to clarify - the hiss is in my second HT that has old-er Denon 6700H with AMD DACs. Should be sufficiently transparent so I blame the hiss primarily on Klipsch RP speakers and then possibly on Parasound for the part.

AV10 system is dead silent but I live in the city so noise floor is never below 30-ish dB. Perhaps if I lived out in the wild, I could be hearing some hiss even from the AV10 system.

 

[Oddball]

They're passive speakers aren't they? Passive speakers don't hiss (only active). Are they very efficient?

Yes, RP 8000 and RP 5000. Klipsch bills them as close to 100dB, but most consider them as lower than 95dB. So yes, quite efficient. But I either got a bad batch or the whole series is designed that way. Anyway, I still enjoyed their bass for years and they served well as the second HT speakers.

LR in AV10 system are 93dB sensitivity but no hiss at all - but admittedly cost more for a pair than all the Klipsch speakers together.

 

[HiFi 5.2]

That could be, but it depends. If SINAD is already at >100, like the AV10, then chances are much greater than hiss is due to other things including your extreme example of ear to tweeter. Back to the AV10's 107 dB SINAD, let's say even just 103 dB, worse case, you might hear hiss with again, "ear to tweeter" (almost touching) and room noise is exceptionally low that is rarely the case. But then, which AVP out there can do better than the AV10 in that sense?

One of the most expensive AVP ASR has measured is the $17,000 Trinnov, and the AV10 is better in both SINAD and DR, in fact even a Denon AVR did better. In my opinion, the AV10, or any available AVP regardless of price is not going to be totally silent under any environment (speaker sensitivity, ambient noise, volume at idling, ears super sensitive to hiss and other electronics related noise), but the AV10 is among the best in class, or even regardless of price, in terms of noise currently one can buy.

View attachment 539676

I agree with that, but our standards needs to be much higher or else manufacturers will simply not care.

 

[peng]

I agree with that, but our standards needs to be much higher or else manufacturers will simply not care.

Fully agreed, that's why I consider myself one of the SINAD chaser, yet I know I am sure SINAD of 90 or 110 dB would make no difference for me.

 

[RichB]

Fully agreed, that's why I consider myself one of the SINAD chaser, yet I know I am sure SINAD of 90 or 110 dB would make no difference for me.

You know, that SINAD of 100 with a 1kHz soundwave is not necessarily the SINAD with content right.
It is likely worse.

If you accept that possibility, also accept that these devices are not tested with processing in the signal path.
The have been more than one case where the SINAD looked bad, and the correction was to disable processing.

Then if you accept that processing can have an impact, then so does the channel count and bass management.
The solution is to attenuate to get headroom.
It is likely that good implementations provide greater gain on the subwoofer outputs to compensate, which is subwoofer outputs are dedicated (I imagine).

SIDAD is headroom for all of the above, since we do not listen to Pure/Direct 1 kHz sine waves.

- Rich

 

[Oddball]

You know, that SINAD of 100 with a 1kHz soundwave is not necessarily the SINAD with content right.
It is likely worse.

If you accept that possibility, also accept that these devices are not tested with processing in the signal path.
The have been more than one case where the SINAD looked bad, and the correction was to disable processing.

Then if you accept that processing can have an impact, then so does the channel count and bass management.
The solution is to attenuate to get headroom.
It is likely that good implementations provide greater gain on the subwoofer outputs to compensate, which is subwoofer outputs are dedicated (I imagine).

SIDAD is headroom for all of the above, since we do not listen to Pure/Direct 1 kHz sine waves.

- Rich

Good solutions do absolutely nothing to provide higher gains on the sub outputs. It really depends how you measure your sub output when calibrating.

We all suspect that with RC engaged, there will be a hit to SINAD, and possibly dynamic range, but then we have nothing but some theory behind it.

Headroom will really depend on your settings and likely RC system. For example, when I engage +12dB ART shelf for the low end my volume is limited to +5dB to reference, which is convenient for the neighbourhood as well as the listening room, as even at reference the SPL is overwhelming. In that respect, the headroom acts a bit like reality check for home systems as they are not PA systems that need to drive 130dB or more.

 

[peng]

You know, that SINAD of 100 with a 1kHz soundwave is not necessarily the SINAD with content right.
It is likely worse.

If you accept that possibility, also accept that these devices are not tested with processing in the signal path.
The have been more than one case where the SINAD looked bad, and the correction was to disable processing.

Then if you accept that processing can have an impact, then so does the channel count and bass management.
The solution is to attenuate to get headroom.
It is likely that good implementations provide greater gain on the subwoofer outputs to compensate, which is subwoofer outputs are dedicated (I imagine).

SIDAD is headroom for all of the above, since we do not listen to Pure/Direct 1 kHz sine waves.

- Rich

Again, I’m a SINAD chaser already, no need to convince me.

I am attracted by the Tide 16, and hope Amir will get one soon.

By the way I also don’t based my decision on single point SINAD so I value ASR’s measurements a lot.

 

[dlaloum]

Look at my signature. First system absolutely zero hiss or noise even with ear-on-the-speakers. SINAD 107dB. Second system significant hiss out of speakers, and when noise floor is below 40dB, becomes slightly audible at MLP 2.5m away. SINAD 100dB.

Difference in SINAD of 7dB is not the reason for the hiss. It is combination of AVR/Amps and speakers. Same happened in two different locations/countries, so it's most likely not power related in this case.

People pull their hair over the hiss and many threads out there if you want to get into them. I gave up and just make sure that listening volume is sufficiently loud to mask the hiss.

Its typically a gain matching issue between pre/power and as you shift the S/N window up or down, you truncate some of your S/N and end up raising the noise level resulting in hiss....

 

[HiFi 5.2]

Has anybody compared to the AVM 90? (AV20)

 

[peng]

Has anybody compared to the AVM 90? (AV20)

In terms of users reviews/comparisons, surely there are some, maybe try some AI search on this and you will find them quicker. I have seen/read a couple on forums such as AVSforum iirc, but I don't think you will find more than a few, and they are all highly subjective anyway. I only read those because the posts were there for me to read, not that I would take any of those being of value. Objectively, it would be easy to compare as they are facts based on tests and measurements.