Marantz AV10 AV Processor Review

[dlaloum]

Could someone kindly explain why the AV10 is $7k and a single ended AVR with as many channels from the same brand or semi-equivalent like Denon is about half the cost. Yes, they don't have balanced pre-outs, but they have the added cost of amplification. So what's the added cost in terms of parts for the AV10? And final terrible question, let's say the AV10 is going into a multi-channel Buckeye Purifi Class D amp. Will there be a discernable difference from said AVRs at 70db?

I believe there is substantial engineering that went into the AV10 and AV20, and the circuit boards are substantially different, while production numbers are substantially lower.

So there is some justification for higher pricing, however in the recent past, it was not unusual to see AVP's on the market using the exact same circuit boards as related AVR's (but excluding amplification circuits, and typically replacing the amp circuit boards with XLR output boards), and being priced at substantially more than their AVR cousins.

There has been a track record of claiming AVP's to be superior... most of which was debunked once people started looking closely at the circuits.

Having said that, the AV10 and AV20 are getting strong rave reviews, and bench tests are showing that their objective measured performance is excellent, and, I believe, superior to their AVR brethren.... whether that margin of improvement is in fact audible is a whole different question! and whether that improvement is worth the incremental cost is a value question that is highly individual to specific buyers!

For most people, the equivalent AVR's with the equivalent features and number of channels are far better value.

For those who have more specific amplification requirements, typically the higher amp needs are limited to the front L/R or L/C/R, and powering those externally, while using the internal amps for the less demanding surround and height channels, may still provides higher value/lower priced outcomes, without in any way compromising performance.

So yes, it is a valid question.

And for many of us, such components, at such a price, make no logical sense. (but value is always in the eye of the beholder...)

 

[hwest]

I believe there is substantial engineering that went into the AV10 and AV20, and the circuit boards are substantially different, while production numbers are substantially lower.

So there is some justification for higher pricing, however in the recent past, it was not unusual to see AVP's on the market using the exact same circuit boards as related AVR's (but excluding amplification circuits, and typically replacing the amp circuit boards with XLR output boards), and being priced at substantially more than their AVR cousins.

There has been a track record of claiming AVP's to be superior... most of which was debunked once people started looking closely at the circuits.

Having said that, the AV10 and AV20 are getting strong rave reviews, and bench tests are showing that their objective measured performance is excellent, and, I believe, superior to their AVR brethren.... whether that margin of improvement is in fact audible is a whole different question! and whether that improvement is worth the incremental cost is a value question that is highly individual to specific buyers!

For most people, the equivalent AVR's with the equivalent features and number of channels are far better value.

For those who have more specific amplification requirements, typically the higher amp needs are limited to the front L/R or L/C/R, and powering those externally, while using the internal amps for the less demanding surround and height channels, may still provides higher value/lower priced outcomes, without in any way compromising performance.

So yes, it is a valid question.

And for many of us, such components, at such a price, make no logical sense. (but value is always in the eye of the beholder...)

I don't know that the sound coming out of a Marantz or Denon justifies the price. I understand the stacked on features but the sound is most important to me.

 

[dlaloum]

I don't know that the sound coming out of a Marantz or Denon justifies the price. I understand the stacked on features but the sound is most important to me.

I doubt you (or pretty much anyone) could tell the difference between an AV10, and a X3800h... (both acting as AVP ).

However, having said that, I do believe that Dirac ART brings something completely new and groundbreaking to the table - and currently D&M are the only relatively affordable platform for it.

I'm saying this as an Onkyo/Integra user... and I am giving PAC a few months to get with the Dirac bandwagon.... if they don't then I will be jumping ship to D&M.

And yes, I feel that if ART can deliver on what it promises (and most of the ART reports say it does!) - then it will be the biggest audible upgrade to my system in years... making it great value.

So in my value calculations I have to factor in the AVR/AVP and the Dirac Licences...

 

[Sal1950]

Get an Anthem 70 cheaper with much better sound than either one of those big box brands, or AVM 90 which is in a different league when it comes to sound. If great sound is your priority as it should be with any receiver then Anthem is the best option under 12K. Spent many years figuring this out saw many stats, listened to many systems, looked at curves and distortion, etc, etc, go listen to one and you'll hear the difference for yourself, it won't even be close, Anthem wins. You may here some folks even here say I like my Marantz or Denon, but liking is one thing hearing is another.

Humm, well your certainly entitled to your opinion, it just happens to be in error.
Actually the AV-10 measures just a bit better than the AVM 90 and I'd bet you a Benjamin Franklin when run in their Pure modes you'd couldn't hear a difference. Then as with most all AV products, once you turn on DRC, and alll the rest that's where the rubber hits the road.
You can call them big box brand but Marantz has been doin this for 73 years now since Saul started building on his kitchen table in NYC , they learned a little in 7+ decades. I just bought my AV-20 it's incredible.

 

[Everett T]

Get an Anthem 70 cheaper with much better sound than either one of those big box brands, or AVM 90 which is in a different league when it comes to sound. If great sound is your priority as it should be with any receiver then Anthem is the best option under 12K. Spent many years figuring this out saw many stats, listened to many systems, looked at curves and distortion, etc, etc, go listen to one and you'll hear the difference for yourself, it won't even be close, Anthem wins. You may here some folks even here say I like my Marantz or Denon, but liking is one thing hearing is another.

You're certainly entitled to your subjective opinion but on paper the Marantz is objectively better and as others have mentioned when in pure direct mode, most wouldn't be able to tell a difference.

If you can "hear" electronics typically there is a problem.

 

[Newman]

Could someone kindly explain why the AV10 is $7k and a single ended AVR with as many channels from the same brand or semi-equivalent like Denon

Show me their AVRs with as many channels.

is about half the cost. Yes, they don't have balanced pre-outs, but they have the added cost of amplification. So what's the added cost in terms of parts for the AV10?

Go and look at some videos where they go 'under the bonnet'. Compare that to your typical AVR and imagine the AVR internals without the power amps. Everything from the chassis, to the PCB system, to the heatsinks (it's a preamp!), to the transformers, to the individual components, to the fully discrete high current channel preamps each with their own board, all are upgraded.

Plus, it's not a 'same design with more expensive parts'. It's a completely new design from the ground up by a headhunted top designer (Gary Dayton from Bryston Audio). That costs, all by itself, not just to design but to tool up.

Plus, it's a flagship/pinnacle product in that line. Show me one company anywhere whose pinnacle product is priced to 'cost-plus-same-margin' vs their value products. It's not a thing. Because it's not for value seekers. If that means it's not for you, then walk away, but don't complain that it isn't parts-cost-plus-same-margin. Flagship products are for buyers who put a value on premium intangibles.

And final terrible question, let's say the AV10 is going into a multi-channel Buckeye Purifi Class D amp. Will there be a discernable difference from said AVRs at 70db?

Very unlikely. If you are not going to use the extra channels or take up the option of Dirac ART, and you are a value seeker, then walk away.

 

[TimoJ]

Plus, it's a flagship/pinnacle product in that line.

But its DSP appears to be identical to their low cost AVR line, offering the same limited features.

 

[Sal1950]

But its DSP appears to be identical to their low cost AVR line, offering the same limited features.

There are options galore available from both Audyssey and Dirac.
Who offers more? Pick your poison.

 

[Sal1950]

We have a few rock throwers here acting like these are stratospheric priced products.
Have you looked at the processors from Storm, Trinnov, JBL, more ???

 

[Everett T]

But its DSP appears to be identical to their low cost AVR line, offering the same limited features.

What limited features? Also, while shared among a few SKUs, the DSP chip is more powerful providing greatly improved performance with immersive sound formats.

 

[Everett T]

We have a few rock throwers here acting like these are stratospheric priced products.
Have you looked at the processors from Storm, Trinnov, JBL, more ???

Right? I'm not sure what some people's expectations are, but in their current market segment, for the features and benefits, the AV10 is a value.

 

[TimoJ]

What limited features? Also, while shared among a few SKUs, the DSP chip is more powerful providing greatly improved performance with immersive sound formats.

No PEQ, no proper tone controls (or at all with ART?), no loudness, limited amount of available ART filters.

 

[Everett T]

No PEQ, no proper tone controls (or at all with ART?), no loudness, limited amount of available ART filters.

Sure PEQ would be a nice addition, but with both of the RC services available, most should be able to fine tune their system, but I get it and some would like it.

As for the ART filters, there is still a possibility of additional via firmware updates.

I won't comment on the tone controls as I haven't touched them since is was in my 20s lol, a long time ago, but the adjustments are available via the menu.

As for loudness control, I'm not sure people who purchasing this product would be interested in that feature, but again, there is an option in the menu for loudness management that adjusts the dynamic compression.

 

[Hayabusa]

dynamic compression.

Dynamic eq, works fine

 

[Everett T]

Dynamic eq, works fine

Exactly!

 

[TimoJ]

Dynamic eq, works fine

Not when Dirac ART is active. And do tone controls work with ART?

 

[voodooless]

Not when Dirac ART is active. And do tone controls work with ART?

I think the idea here is that ART would yield superior performance to simple tone controls. If you want, you can always change your curve, or make several profiles you can switch between. Maybe not as simple and fast, but it's probably a good compromise vs not having any room correction at all.

 

[dlaloum]

No PEQ, no proper tone controls (or at all with ART?), no loudness, limited amount of available ART filters.

I believe many people on here would not be aware of the HPT1 feature set...

 

[kawauso]

D&M units have excellent UI and plenty of channels, but how about Storm or the HTP-1?
I’m running 12 height speakers, four subwoofers, and several different speaker configurations — it would’ve been quite a hassle if I weren’t using D&M.
I’d like to have tone controls and PEQ, but since they aren’t included, I added a miniDSP.
The miniDSP’s four presets and remote control are also very convenient.
As for ART filters, I already have more than enough — I haven’t even used them all yet.

 

[90sNintendoKid]

Could someone kindly explain why the AV10 is $7k and a single ended AVR with as many channels from the same brand or semi-equivalent like Denon is about half the cost. Yes, they don't have balanced pre-outs, but they have the added cost of amplification. So what's the added cost in terms of parts for the AV10? And final terrible question, let's say the AV10 is going into a multi-channel Buckeye Purifi Class D amp. Will there be a discernable difference from said AVRs at 70db?

I asked myself the same question and I decided to buy a Denon 3800h and I use external amplification (Fosi v3 monos and v3 stereo) for my ear level speakers and the Denon amps for Atmos despite the "low" SINAD.

I decided to spend money on speakers and EQ (I bought Dirac ART) rather than chase sinad or balanced outputs.

I don't have ground loop problems so far.

If I do ever upgrade, it will be to the Denon 6800H for 6 height speakers but I don't think I will because I've been disappointed with height effects in Atmos movies so far.

I now take the position that if need XLR then I will upgrade and I also expect that AV processors with digital outputs will become cheaper and more available, there's a few threads on this forum. Again, I don't think I will bother, I am more than impressed by Dirac ART and using Magic Beans True Target for my speaker target curves.