Marantz AV10 AV Processor Review

[Sal1950]

Exactly. Think of the KEF LS line, Genelecs or any similar system, brought together by RJ45 cables and perhaps a cd or turntable (sources, after all) plugged to a central speaker.

There's much of that out there, D&D 8C and the Kii 3s being quite popular.
I don't see the "one box" ever really taking over the audiophile community.
Leaving all the lunitic fringe aside, I still prefer the basic separate boxes style myself. If one component dies, it's replacement
or repair is FAST and easy - peasy, as are upgrades of both hardware & software. What happens 5 years after the "one box manufacturer" goes belly up or dies?.
Lifestyle type gear definitely has it virtues, so does the traditional path.

 

[Vacceo]

There's much of that out there, D&D 8C and the Kii 3s being quite popular.
I don't see the "one box" ever really taking over the audiophile community.
Leaving all the lunitic fringe aside, I still prefer the basic separate boxes style myself. If one component dies, it's replacement
or repair is FAST and easy - peasy, as are upgrades of both hardware & software. What happens 5 years after the "one box manufacturer" goes belly up or dies?.
Lifestyle type gear definitely has it virtues, so does the traditional path.

Sure! I use a very conventional AVR with very passive KEF IQ speakers. The existence of actives and integrated systems does not detract from conventional systems too.

 

[Tre2023]

It certainly does, provided your DAC supports it, as seen in my screenshot above and below. I actually have two signal chains that natively bitstream DSD: Integra DRX-8.4 AVR for up to DSD256 and McIntosh C53 /w DA2 module and a Roon Bridge over USB for DSD512. Native / DSD-Direct can be selected under device setup:

View attachment 416075

Curiosity got the better of me and I tinkered a bit more with Roon installed on my Mac which is connected via HDMI to my receiver. Being only Roon Tested, my receiver does not allow for DSD Native setting in Roon for output over the network.

I tweaked the settings in Roon for output and selected 7.1. I also selected 8 Channel(7.1) output in the Mac’s audio MIDI settings and set the receiver sound mode to MULTI CH IN. Roon playback of two channel and multichannel signals are output seamlessly with these settings.

While the DSD/DSF files are output as PCM over HDMI using Roon in my Mac, you’d never know it. Nothing seems to be altered or lost compared to the DSD bitstream from the same files output from my Sony disc player. But, It means nothing to some who want DSD Native output and cannot have it because it is not supported using Roon over HDMI and/or their unit is not Roon Ready. It is a shame more costly and capable units such as the AV10 are not Roon Ready.

I’ll experiment with Roon and DSD files a bit more before going back to the Apple Music app for playing music. A Dolby Atmos music bitstream is only available from the Apple Music app on MacOS. Unfortunately, Dolby Atmos music bitstream is not supported from the Apple Music app in my Mac when using Airplay to send audio to my receivers. Frustrating, since the Apple TV app in my Mac can Airplay Dolby Vision and Dolby Atmos to my TV.

 

[Newman]

A Dolby Atmos music bitstream is only available from the Apple Music app on MacOS.

What about when playing the app on an Apple 4K TV? Then connect that box via HDMI to your receiver?

 

[Tre2023]

Sorry, I meant Apple Music Dolby Atmos on a Mac is supported while Dolby Atmos from other services on MacOS are not supported. The Apple TV 4K can bitstream Dolby Atmos from Apple Music as well.

Actually, I misspoke. The Apple TV 4K does not bitstream Dolby Atmos. It supports Dolby MAT2 and signals are output as LPCM and Dolby Atmos metadata is retained in the output signal from all apps. MacOS received updates to support Dolby Atmos bitstream in the Apple TV and Apple Music apps.

 

[chelgrian]

Sorry, I meant Apple Music Dolby Atmos on a Mac is supported while Dolby Atmos from other services on MacOS are not supported. The Apple TV 4K can bitstream Dolby Atmos from Apple Music as well.

Actually, I misspoke. The Apple TV 4K does not bitstream Dolby Atmos. It supports Dolby MAT2 and signals are output as LPCM and Dolby Atmos metadata is retained in the output signal from all apps. MacOS received updates to support Dolby Atmos bitstream in the Apple TV and Apple Music apps.

MAT2 is the way most transport of Atmos works and is always used if the source is TrueHD like Blu-ray. It is possible to transport EAC3+JOC over HDMI including the version of Atmos that can be encoded in it but it is less used.

Whenever you get weird limitations like this one on macOS there is usually a legal/licensing limitation behind it.

 

[Tre2023]

That is not actually the case. Blu-ray players bitstream/passthrough Dolby Atmos metadata. This is why the incoming signal is identified as Atmos/TrueHD and is decoded at the receiving end provided the speaker configuration is of the compatible sort for processing the metadata.

Set a blu-ray player to output PCM and the Atmos metadata is lost and a multichannel PCM signal is recognized at the receiving end. The Apple TV 4K is one of few devices that decodes and converts Dolby Atmos signals to LPCM for output and retains Atmos metadata. The incoming signal will be displayed as Dolby Atmos or Atmos/PCM depending on the device used at the receiving end.

All streaming Dolby Atmos signals are the lossy Atmos/DD+ type. But, if a device such as the Apple TV 4K is used for playback, the signal is output as LPCM and uses more bandwidth for transmission than it would have used as a bitstream. This is why the Atmos/PCM signal of the Apple TV 4K exceeds the bandwidth limits of ARC as do those of some ither devices outputting LPCM.

The update to macOS was a surprise because it allowed for bitstream/passthrough of the Atmos/DD+ signal from the Apple Music and Apple TV apps rather than use the LPCM conversion that retains Atmos metadata like the Apple TV 4K. Many wish the Apple TV 4K supported Dolby Atmos bitstream/passthrough.

 

[Sal1950]

The update to macOS was a surprise because it allowed for bitstream/passthrough of the Atmos/DD+ signal from the Apple Music and Apple TV apps rather than use the LPCM conversion that retains Atmos metadata like the Apple TV 4K. Many wish the Apple TV 4K supported Dolby Atmos bitstream/passthrough.

I get a bit confused with this technology, but since no one is currently streaming Atmos in the lossless TrueHD form, what purpose
would that serve?

 

[Tre2023]

The LPCM output of incoming Atmos/DD+ signals requires more bandwidth for transmission over HDMI. Without the ability to bitstream/passthrough the compressed and lossy signal, those connecting an Apple TV 4K directly to a TV and using eARC to get audio to an AVP/AVR that only supports ARC and NOT eARC will have issues.

Some new TVs can take the input source Atmos/PCM signal and re encode it as lossy Atmos/DD+ for output to fit over ARC. But, the process can and usually results in audio sync issues.

The Apple TV 4K, Amazon Fire Cube Gen 3 and Next Gen gaming consoles support Atmos over LPCM so that system sounds can be integrated into audio output. The Apple TV 4K cannot pass Dolby Atmos any other way. The Amazon Fire Cube Gen 3 does have a DD+ output setting. This is useful when connected directly to a TV and signal is sent over ARC.

To steer things back to the Marantz AV10, it supports DSD bitstream over HDMI. It also supports eARC. So no issues with lossless multichannel PCM signals there from a connected TV supporting eARC. But, Roon does NOT support a DSD bitstream over HDMI in a PC or Mac. So, if the AVP/AVR is NOT Roon Ready and is just Roon Tested, Native DSD is NOT supported over the network connection.

My AVR is NOT Roon Ready. Roon does NOT support DSD bitstream over HDMI but DSD files can be output as multichannel PCM over HDMI from my Mac using Roon for playback. The Apple Music app in macOS does not support DSD but now supports Dolby Atmos bitstream over HDMI. It does NOT support Atmos metadata over LPCM like the Apple TV 4K. For DSD bitstream of files, I have to play them from one of my Sony Universal disc players. The USB ports of the Sony players support DSD and Dolby Atmos bitstream.

 

[Newman]

So...for Apple Music, use the Apple 4K TV box and connect it to your AVR not your TV. Got it.

But Roon is not so simple. Thanks

 

[chelgrian]

That is not actually the case. Blu-ray players bitstream/passthrough Dolby Atmos metadata. This is why the incoming signal is identified as Atmos/TrueHD and is decoded at the receiving end provided the speaker configuration is of the compatible sort for processing the metadata.

Set a blu-ray player to output PCM and the Atmos metadata is lost and a multichannel PCM signal is recognized at the receiving end. The Apple TV 4K is one of few devices that decodes and converts Dolby Atmos signals to LPCM for output and retains Atmos metadata. The incoming signal will be displayed as Dolby Atmos or Atmos/PCM depending on the device used at the receiving end.

All streaming Dolby Atmos signals are the lossy Atmos/DD+ type. But, if a device such as the Apple TV 4K is used for playback, the signal is output as LPCM and uses more bandwidth for transmission than it would have used as a bitstream. This is why the Atmos/PCM signal of the Apple TV 4K exceeds the bandwidth limits of ARC as do those of some ither devices outputting LPCM.

The update to macOS was a surprise because it allowed for bitstream/passthrough of the Atmos/DD+ signal from the Apple Music and Apple TV apps rather than use the LPCM conversion that retains Atmos metadata like the Apple TV 4K. Many wish the Apple TV 4K supported Dolby Atmos bitstream/passthrough.

It is true that Atmos doesn’t use LPCM8 over HDMI and I never claimed it did.

Any Atmos transport must be via EAC3+JOC aka Dolby Digital Plus or via MAT. MAT has several operating modes at least one of them encapsulates TrueHD/MLP however MAT 2 at least allows the use uncompressed audio that is what Apple TV is using. The reason for this is that it makes it simple to mix in system sounds which passing through an unmodified encoded bitstream makes impossible.

HDMI 2.x has enough reserved data rate for 32 uncompressed 24bit/48KHz audio channels MAT can take advantage of that to send an Atmos bed + objects + metadata.

Apple have a mechanism for sending pre-rendered 5.1.2 out of Logic Audio via PCM8 with a non standard channel order.

https://support.apple.com/en-gb/guide/logicpro/lgcp179f27c1/mac

 

[Tre2023]

So...for Apple Music, use the Apple 4K TV box and connect it to your AVR not your TV. Got it.

But Roon is not so simple. Thanks

The Apple TV 4K can be connected directly to a TV and not have issues as long as the TV and AVP/AVR support eARC. Regardless of the connection, the Apple TV 4K supports Apple Music Lossless up to 24/48 and lossy Atmos/Dolby Digital Plus. Hi-res 192/24 is not supported.

 

[Sal1950]

So...for Apple Music, use the Apple 4K TV box and connect it to your AVR not your TV. Got it.
Thanks

Let's see Newman, I think I've said that like 5 or 6 times now. LOL

 

[Tre2023]

It is true that Atmos doesn’t use LPCM8 over HDMI and I never claimed it did.

Any Atmos transport must be via EAC3+JOC aka Dolby Digital Plus or via MAT. MAT has several operating modes at least one of them encapsulates TrueHD/MLP however MAT 2 at least allows the use uncompressed audio that is what Apple TV is using. The reason for this is that it makes it simple to mix in system sounds which passing through an unmodified encoded bitstream makes impossible.

HDMI 2.x has enough reserved data rate for 32 uncompressed 24bit/48KHz audio channels MAT can take advantage of that to send an Atmos bed + objects + metadata.

Apple have a mechanism for sending pre-rendered 5.1.2 out of Logic Audio via PCM8 with a non standard channel order.

https://support.apple.com/en-gb/guide/logicpro/lgcp179f27c1/mac

Rendered, Schmendered. The point was that the Apple TV 4K has no bitstream option for audio output of Atmos/Dolby Digital Plus. Some want it and look to other devices for bitstream/passthrough.

 

[dsd4life]

Rendered, Schmendered. The point was that the Apple TV 4K has no bitstream option for audio output of Atmos/Dolby Digital Plus. Some want it and look to other devices for bitstream/passthrough.

Try Apple Music App on the new Zidoo 8K Platform. Probably the only implementation doing a dedicated audio HDMI output. No Apple TV 4K can do that.

Zidoo 8K Media Players FAQ

The vagaries of the HDMI spec. DVDs are encoded in either 720x576 25 fps (PAL) or 720x480 29.970fps/30fps (NTSC. Sort of) and usually, for movies at...

forum.zidoo.tv

 

[Newman]

Try Apple Music App on the new Zidoo 8K Platform. Probably the only implementation doing a dedicated audio HDMI output. No Apple TV 4K can do that.

Won't make any audible difference IMHO. Just another audiophile dream, to say that the digital audio in a shared A/V HDMI port is corrupted in a way that will be audibly different in an audio-only HDMI port.

 

[Tre2023]

Try Apple Music App on the new Zidoo 8K Platform. Probably the only implementation doing a dedicated audio HDMI output. No Apple TV 4K can do that.

Zidoo 8K Media Players FAQ

The vagaries of the HDMI spec. DVDs are encoded in either 720x576 25 fps (PAL) or 720x480 29.970fps/30fps (NTSC. Sort of) and usually, for movies at...

forum.zidoo.tv

View attachment 416893

I do not normally use the Apple TV 4K for music playback. I use the Apple Music app in my Mac mini M1 connected via HDMI to my main room receiver and Dolby Atmos bitstream is supported for output over HDMI.

The Zidoo looks nice and I enjoy experimenting with new devices but it is not a necessity and I’m out of available HDMI ports. I have to keep telling myself these things or I’ll end up with even more devices that cannot be accommodated in the system collecting dust in a closet.

 

[dsd4life]

Won't make any audible difference IMHO. Just another audiophile dream, to say that the digital audio in a shared A/V HDMI port is corrupted in a way that will be audibly different in an audio-only HDMI port.

Look at the chipset and the clocks in Eversolo DMP A6 Master series and the new Zidoo UHD8000. Significant improvements over the Apple 4K TV 3rd generation.

And consider you can stream DSD64 Multichannel and FLAC 7.1 it is a no brainer.

So funny how the Trinov can't decode anything over 96/24 bit PCM but Denon / Marantz can.

I would get a refurbished AV10 before the stock goes dry with this platform.

 

[Newman]

Look at the chipset and the clocks in Eversolo DMP A6 Master series and the new Zidoo UHD8000. Significant improvements over the Apple 4K TV 3rd generation.

I'm sorry but comparing chipsets and clocks is absolutely no way to conclude what sounds better. You are entering the 'DACs all sound different if they use different components' realm of delusion.

 

[Newman]

Won't make any audible difference IMHO. Just another audiophile dream, to say that the digital audio in a shared A/V HDMI port is corrupted in a way that will be audibly different in an audio-only HDMI port.

By the way, the original reason for adding an audio-only HDMI port was for compatibility with legacy receivers that can't handle modern video signals. So you send the video HDMI straight to the display unit, and the audio-only HDMI to the receiver. This idea that it 'sounds better' separated from the mixed A/V HDMI is something the marketing dept would come up with.