Marantz AV10 AV Processor Review

[Kevinfc]

I can’t imagine having a use for this at home, but if you did, well it’s quite a unit. The inside looks better than the outside.

 

[levimax]

I am taking a hard look at this as well since my XMC-2 just died for the second time. Thankfully it is still under warranty but I have lost all of my patience with it.

After 2 "high end" AVR's failed and could not be repaired after less than 5 years but out of warranty I gave up on them. These things are incredibly complex and physically dense and I don't think you can depend on them being reliable long term. Unfortunately troubleshooting and repair is also complicated and parts (full board replacement for the most part) availability is spotty after just a few years. While this thing is cool I am not rich enough to take a $7K risk.

 

[GXAlan]

At a minimum, Marantz needs to offer the unit with Dirac DLBC and, preferably with Dirac ART. Really for this kind of money it should have Trinov functionality.

Trinnov functionality for 16 channels starts at... you know, $19,500. So it's not really fair to say that a single digital thousands should have the functionality that is currently only available at about 3X the real-world cost.

6 channels of Trinnov is $5500 with Trinnov Nova, which hasn't shipped yet

DLBC has been officially announced as coming to the AV10 (and all D+M products from the X3800H/C50 on up). ART has been unofficially announced by Marantz staff in Europe.

That's what concerns me. We don't actually know if ART is coming or if they're going to be a deal breaker. Even HTP-1 is falling behind schedule for ART and that has official statements that it's coming along an in alpha, and so far there are no deal breakers although there are bugs to work out.

 

[TuteTibiImperes]

Yes, those are all insanely high margin products. The margin a retailer makes on like a basic mid-range B&W loudspeaker is already 20-40% if they sell them as MSRP (unless it has dropped significantly over the past years), anything above that is just pure margin. That's just how that works for these kind of products. Especially products that require zero manual craftmanship.

Let me ask you, what do you think the BOM and production cost for an AV10 is?

There’s a lot more that goes into the price than the BOM though.

They have to account for R&D, licensing costs to Dolby/DTS/etc (which increase based on the channel count of the unit), marketing costs, warranty costs, higher labor costs since this unit is assembled in Japan, etc.

Then Marantz has to make a profit selling it to the dealers/retailers, and they have to make a profit selling it to the end user.

When I used to work selling electronics I seem to remember that when it came to audio gear speakers had by far the most markup, but that it was much less on component electronics (other than Bose which was pretty huge on everything).

Regardless I do think $7K is a lot for a pure processor, which is why I went with the equivalent Denon unit, the AVR-A1H, which is a full receiver with the amps built-in so I paid less for the unit and saved the cost on external amps.

I imagine it will measure similarly since it’s the same platform, but hoping that Amir gets one.

 

[phoenixdogfan]

I would think it's MUCH higher than 90%.

I would agree, if we are talking about the margins of everyone in the supply chain, 90% seems about right. Again, that's an arguement for moving everything to a PC and doing all of this with software which the boat anchor makers like Marantz and evidently the copyright codec overlords (possssibly) will fight to the death opposing.

Fact remains, however, if Atmos, DTS-X, and Auro loosened up their codecs and allowed companies like JRiver to decode them, we could have 16 channel DACS that perform like the Topping, OCTO, and Motu 8 channel units that would cost around $1k, cheap heights like the ones sold by Monoprice for $250/pr, and chip amp like Aiyima A07 to power them for $80.

The codec gatekeepers could undoubtedly make a lot more money because these pc based system would attract a mamy more users than these elaborate $7000 units, and the performance on a PC would be every bit as good with the same features and functionality (including Dirac), DAC performance would be far superior, and speaker/amp options would be anything the user wanted, with entry level Atmos being a real option.

Indeed if anyone already has a five channel home theater system, they could expand to a 5.1.4 for around $1.5k. That would be an attactive proposition for a lot of guys with smaller home theaters systems and limited space and budgets.

 

[muslhead]

Its because the markup on this is about 90%.

and you know this, how?
Please provide proof of your claim.
Even if it is 90% what is your point.
Are businesses not allowed a profit?
Who are you or anyone beyond the business to say what profit is acceptable

I suggest you open and run a business to make a living and then i am highly confident these comments will never come to your thoughts again

 

[GXAlan]

The codec gatekeepers could undoubtedly make a lot more money because these pc based system would attract a mamy more users than these elaborate $7000 units, and the performance on a PC would be every bit as good with the same features and functionality (including Dirac), DAC performance would be far superior, and speaker/amp options would be anything the user wanted, with entry level Atmos being a real option.

I think the problem is multi-fold. When it comes to mainstream sources of content today

1) 4K UHD discs never succeeded on the PC. There was a very small window of time where you could buy a UHD BD drive, Cyberlink PowerDVD, and playback UHD discs. This required fancy Intel integrated graphics with a secure content pathway to reduce the chance of casual copying/pirating. Since you couldn't use AMD/NVIDIA GPUs and Intel removed that feature in later CPUs, it became a dead end.

2) 4K streaming sources like Disney+, Vudu, Netflix, Paramount+ and Amazon Prime restrict video to 1080p on PCs so you're not getting the best performance.

3) As headphones have gotten more and more popular, this is a large market of PC users.

So you can imagine that if the codec gatekeepers cut the licensing fees in half, they'd have to sell 2X as many licenses to end up in the same place. If they only cut the price a little, it's not clear that they would make "a lot more money."

We have well documented science that listening in stereo masks frequency response issues that you can pick up in mono. Listening to movies in surround sound goes even further. I honestly think that high SINAD high transparency electronics is fun for us hobbyists, but entry level Atmos through something like Sony STR-DH790 for $350 is going to sound great for those on a budget regardless of what the DAC SINAD actually measures.

 

[TuteTibiImperes]

I would agree, if we are talking about the margins of everyone in the supply chain, 90% seems about right. Again, that's an arguement for moving everything to a PC and doing all of this with software which the boat anchor makers like Marantz and evidently the copyright codec overlords (possssibly) will fight to the death opposing.

Fact remains, however, if Atmos, DTS-X, and Auro loosened up their codecs and allowed companies like JRiver to decode them, we could have 16 channel DACS that perform like the Topping, OCTO, and Motu 8 channel units that would cost around $1k, cheap heights like the ones sold by Monoprice for $250/pr, and chip amp like Aiyima A07 to power them for $80.

The codec gatekeepers could undoubtedly make a lot more money because these pc based system would attract a mamy more users than these elaborate $7000 units, and the performance on a PC would be every bit as good with the same features and functionality (including Dirac), DAC performance would be far superior, and speaker/amp options would be anything the user wanted, with entry level Atmos being a real option.

Indeed if anyone already has a five channel home theater system, they could expand to a 5.1.4 for around $1.5k. That would be an attactive proposition for a lot of guys with smaller home theaters systems and limited space and budgets.

Trnnov units are essentially PCs with a custom software stack and a bunch of extra IO ports. They’re also considerably more than this unit.

It turns out writing the software to handle AV duties and being able to convince the rights holders your PC-based platform won’t lead to mass piracy and covering all of the license fees is dang expensive.

I think you also greatly overestimate the number of people who will want to deal with setting up a pc to handle audio/video duty in their living room, and the number of people who need or want 15 channels of support.

Most people are happy with soundbars. Most people who go beyond that get the cheapest receivers in the lineup and do 5.1 systems if that.

 

[anphex]

Thank you Denon and Marantz for not only adding more tech features but also improving audio quality iteration over iteration! You have a happy customer here!

 

[phoenixdogfan]

I think the problem is multi-fold. When it comes to mainstream sources of content today

1) 4K UHD discs never succeeded on the PC. There was a very small window of time where you could buy a UHD BD drive, Cyberlink PowerDVD, and playback UHD discs. This required fancy Intel integrated graphics with a secure content pathway to reduce the chance of casual copying/pirating. Since you couldn't use AMD/NVIDIA GPUs and Intel removed that feature in later CPUs, it became a dead end.

2) 4K streaming sources like Disney+, Vudu, Netflix, Paramount+ and Amazon Prime restrict video to 1080p on PCs so you're not getting the best performance.

3) As headphones have gotten more and more popular, this is a large market of PC users.

So you can imagine that if the codec gatekeepers cut the licensing fees in half, they'd have to sell 2X as many licenses to end up in the same place. If they only cut the price a little, it's not clear that they would make "a lot more money."

We have well documented science that listening in stereo masks frequency response issues that you can pick up in mono. Listening to movies in surround sound goes even further. I honestly think that high SINAD high transparency electronics is fun for us hobbyists, but entry level Atmos through something like Sony STR-DH790 for $350 is going to sound great for those on a budget regardless of what the DAC SINAD actually measures.

"4K streaming sources like Disney+, Vudu, Netflix, Paramount+ and Amazon Prime restrict video to 1080p on PCs so you're not getting the best performance."

No they don't, I get 4K HDR from Netflix, Amazon Prime, and Hulu from my desktop apps on my Windows 11 PC (Mele Quiter 3Q) as well as 5.1 Channel DD+.

 

[GXAlan]

No they don't, I get 4K HDR from Netflix, Amazon Prime, and Hulu from my desktop apps on my Windows 11 PC (Mele Quiter 3Q) as well as 5.1 Channel DD+.

That's great! Maybe my desktop doesn't have the right content protection setup. I have had the HEVC extensions.

That said, I just tried my laptop and it does 4K. Wow. Thanks!

 

[MoreWatts]

No they don't, I get 4K HDR from Netflix, Amazon Prime, and Hulu from my desktop apps on my Windows 11 PC (Mele Quiter 3Q) as well as 5.1 Channel DD+.

For content providers that don't have official Windows 11 desktop apps, they will often provide HDR capability via the MS Edge browser. You can then 'install the site as an app' via the browser 'apps' settings. Just fyi, this thread is about a Marantz processor...

 

[multisport4me]

Trinnov functionality for 16 channels starts at... you know, $19,500. So it's not really fair to say that a single digital thousands should have the functionality that is currently only available at about 3X the real-world cost.

6 channels of Trinnov is $5500 with Trinnov Nova, which hasn't shipped yet


That's what concerns me. We don't actually know if ART is coming or if they're going to be a deal breaker. Even HTP-1 is falling behind schedule for ART and that has official statements that it's coming along an in alpha, and so far there are no deal breakers although there are bugs to work out.

Not surprised with ART and HTP-1. They've claimed DTSX Pro is "already working" years ago and to my knowledge, they still haven't delivered on that, let alone ART. But that is what you get for an ultra-affordable processor that does many things well but bug fixes or new features take forever or may never come. They don't have the resources internally and have to rely on outside parties for development or fixes. It's a fine platform if you like to tweak and there are many fine fellows that are heavily invested in the platform, helping others, and even doing bug fixes for Monoprice themselves.

With Trinnov, you get prices I would expect for a niche, super high-end, company that develops in house and has control over their software platform. Not sure about the PC mobos and whether or not they are custom, but other than that, they seem to have complete control over their software and have to pay for that team of engineers somehow. Their lofty prices are a function of recouping a large R&D layout, a niche addressable market, a likely reliance on outside hardware manufacturers, and a huge margin stack to sell through in-direct channels (dealers).

I think Marantz and Anthem are offering tremendous value given the features and performance of the products. The engineering in the AV10 is really quite remarkable. This is a platform I can live with for multiple years - not annually replacing like I've done with many other processors. Is it perfect? Of course not. But still a tremendous value given its performance and capabilities.

Another unvarnished, empirical review @Amir !

 

[Opal]

Can we sign a petition for Marantz to release a AV20 after this. 99% of us do not need this monstrous amount of inputs and pay $7000

 

[GXAlan]

Not surprised with ART and HTP-1.... It's a fine platform if you like to tweak and there are many fine fellows that are heavily invested in the platform, helping others, and even doing bug fixes for Monoprice themselves.
...
With Trinnov, you get prices I would expect for a niche, super high-end, company that develops in house and has control over their software platform. Not sure about the PC mobos and whether or not they are custom
...
I think Marantz and Anthem are offering tremendous level given the features and performance of the products. The engineering in the AV10 is really quite remarkable. This is a platform I can live with for multiple years - not annually replacing like I've done with many other processors. Is it perfect? Of course not. But still a tremendous value given its performance and capabilities.

1) Agreed. The good is that the tweaking is a lot less in 2023 compared to before, but the HTP-1 is definitely a hobbyist level AVP. I bought DLBC because you need it for Dirac ART, but I don't find DLBC to be vastly superior to the approach of full range speakers + dual LFE, so in my use case, I would prefer the AV10. Likewise, the HTP-1 lacks a pure analog mode which is needed if you are using it with something like a digital piano where the latency of ADC/DAC is just enough to interfere with the audible-feedback element essential for playing the piano.

2) Trinnov has historically used ASUS Prime motherboards. Once Intel got out of the motherboard market some 10 years ago, I think ASUS has the had the most consistently reliable motherboards on the market. Companies like Supermicro and Tyan are reliable but often lack the extra thermal management since they expect to be used in server grade chassis. Trinnov NOVA moves to the ARM platform and is likely custom for them. It still hasn't shipped yet, so it may still be going through development.

3) In the HypeX failure thread, I pointed out how something like the Marantz PM-10 has several additional layers of safety circuitry and protection circuitry that goes beyond the basic HypeX SMPS and NCore capabilities. They explained how they delayed the launch of the PM-10 after the SA-10 due to questions about speaker relays for protection versus using HypeX's Class D nature. What we don't get a sense of in the engineering from just SINAD or the ergonomics page is this attention to reliability. Additionally, buying a product made in Japan adds costs. If you look at the Classe Audio videos when they moved their manufacturing from China to Shirakawa Works, you can also see the attention to detail that goes into supply chain validation, documentation, etc.

 

[amirm]

I have a question for any EE's -
I always assumed it was hard to get noise and interference down in products with lots of signals moving around each other, is this the case? Is getting 120db/SINAD realistic for a product with a ton of DSP, dozens of connections, wireless capabilities and so on? How much harder is it to protect the integrity of the signal in a product like this - or is it a simple matter of splitting the power/adc/dsp/dac portions as much as possible?

The complexity can be solved as they have shown here. The one handicap they have is requirement for headroom. As you probably know, we can't let digital samples clip when we modify them. These boxes have multiple signal processing units, each unaware of the other. So they all reserve some amount of headroom whether they need it or not. The sum total probably costs 10 dB or so. Global headroom management would solve this but that assumes they implement their own DSP modules and not license it. This is the reason I have created a separate category and performance metric for AV processors.

 

[digicidal]

That's a big deal. Audio source from laptop, mobile, etc. F**k the price!

Many years ago I would have agreed with you... now I couldn't disagree more. I can't come up with a reason for not wanting to use HDMI with any PC you'd have connected to a $7K processor... but if there is one... Toslink, streaming over Wifi or LAN, BT, etc. seem far better (and cleaner options). You can use it as a Roon endpoint as well (I assume since I can use both of my 8801's that way and they're over 10 years old).

the remote also looks like something you get from a $500 costco special

a part of me thinks this is amazing because its Marantz and we know how their past products went... and by the same token do we not expect perfection for $7k?

I'm not sure of the new ones, but it looks close enough so I'm going to say - best remote I've ever used (out of ~100 or so). As long as I see the illumination button on the side everything is good. That makes it super nice to use in a dark theater setting, but doesn't have an annoying accelerometer making it light up every time you set your drink down, shift in your seat, or the subs hit hard enough.

After 2 "high end" AVR's failed and could not be repaired after less than 5 years but out of warranty I gave up on them. These things are incredibly complex and physically dense and I don't think you can depend on them being reliable long term. Unfortunately troubleshooting and repair is also complicated and parts (full board replacement for the most part) availability is spotty after just a few years. While this thing is cool I am not rich enough to take a $7K risk.

I understand being a bit gun shy after that, but either you're very unlucky or you've got some abusive environmental conditions in your cabinet/rack? Naturally both of our experiences are anecdotal (relatively meaningless), but both of my 8801's are still 100% functional after ~11 years. I've got a ~20 year old Pioneer Elite and 16 year old Denon that still work 100%... they just don't have all inputs, codecs, etc. I'd need - but they make great garage, guest room, etc. gear.

I almost wish something I had would fail... as that would make justifying the AV10 purchase much easier. I agree that $7K isn't cheap... though I've had good luck with Denon factory refurbished gear so it could be $5800 I suppose... in my case it will be much more expensive however. I'll have to buy my "CFO" a new car or expensive jewelry to distract from the purchase of something I already have "a closet full of..." I don't really like creating more e-waste unnecessarily either... but WAF is a much bigger deal.

 

[Acerun]

Not sure I see anything I would upgrade for from a Denon X8500H using nCore outboard amps. 3db of SINAD higher than the X8500H's 104.

 

[ban25]

That's what concerns me. We don't actually know if ART is coming or if they're going to be a deal breaker. Even HTP-1 is falling behind schedule for ART and that has official statements that it's coming along an in alpha, and so far there are no deal breakers although there are bugs to work out.

Yeah but the HTP-1 ART announcement was made by a guy who sits in his house and works for a budget cable company. And who has a reputation of making optimistic statements to make people happy in the moment.

That's little better than Marantz Europe's "We're looking into it," in my mind.

 

[chelgrian]

I think 700 is going to be pretty close. Regardless, even it was double that the pricing would still be insane. I understand why Marantz does it like that, because people will pay it. That's how the high-end market works, high-end = high margins. Always has been and always will be.

And bias? Perhaps, I'm basing it on my experience in retail .

Looking at it I'd guess that plus software licensing costs, bespoke software development costs and costs of sale.

For a lot of things where dealers are meant to be providing install and after sales service dealers will be acquiring for between 30% to 40% of MSRP. For mass market things it's between 50% and 80% depending on a whole host of factors