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Marantz 6014 and Martin Logan ESL combo

Sipping1s&0s

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hi,

I have a Marantz SR6014 and Martin Logan ESL combo, using the Logan as front LR speakers. I stream with TIdal Hi-Fi

I wanted to be able to hear the Pure Direct because of the great soundstages with great DEPTH; aka you can hear the front and back of singer and instruments. While, the soundstage is there in Pure Direct, the treble is very disappointing. The high would "roll off". However, the speakers sound fine with 15 year old Yamaha RX-V2700 Receiver.

My questions are:
1) What can I do to make the high notes coming back when playing in Pure Direct of my Marantz?
2) Does it mean the Marantz SR6014 need Class D amp with 250W+ each channel to get the high notes?
3) is my Marantz defective???

I played with many settings on the SR6014 and I cannot get the high notes in Pure Direct. In the other modes, liked, HDAM, stereo modes, the high notes are back, BUT, the depth of soundstage is gone. I think the SR6014's processing destroyed it.

Please help.
 

ThatM1key

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I'm trying to wrap around my head around this. I'll shoot in the dark, I think some AVRs regardless of more power and less distortion sounds worse in Pure direct due to room acoustics and etc etc. Like with many speakers, AVRs also have there own kind sound of blend (Being bright, forward, etc).

I assume that the Marantz and the Yamaha are in pure direct mode when you are comparing I'm thinking the Yamaha's characteristics blend in better than with the Marantz. If your Marantz sounds better in DSP mode than use that. If you want a pure stereo experience go with a regular amplifier instead of using an AVR or you could use the pre-outs of that Marantz and play around with different amps.

Why don't you use both amps then? Best of both worlds. Use the Marantz as the processor/DAC and then use the Yamaha as amp (Using the preouts from the Marantz). This could only work if your preouts can output a fixed signal because I think your Yamaha can't act like a "amp without a preamp".
 

Everett T

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hi,

I have a Marantz SR6014 and Martin Logan ESL combo, using the Logan as front LR speakers. I stream with TIdal Hi-Fi

I wanted to be able to hear the Pure Direct because of the great soundstages with great DEPTH; aka you can hear the front and back of singer and instruments. While, the soundstage is there in Pure Direct, the treble is very disappointing. The high would "roll off". However, the speakers sound fine with 15 year old Yamaha RX-V2700 Receiver.

My questions are:
1) What can I do to make the high notes coming back when playing in Pure Direct of my Marantz?
2) Does it mean the Marantz SR6014 need Class D amp with 250W+ each channel to get the high notes?
3) is my Marantz defective???

I played with many settings on the SR6014 and I cannot get the high notes in Pure Direct. In the other modes, liked, HDAM, stereo modes, the high notes are back, BUT, the depth of soundstage is gone. I think the SR6014's processing destroyed it.

Please help.
It's not power that you're lacking. It does sound like audyssey is engaged and the midrange compensation is dulling the sound. Also the marantz does have a slight roll off before 20hz as well.
 
OP
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Sipping1s&0s

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I assume that the Marantz and the Yamaha are in pure direct mode when you are comparing I'm thinking the Yamaha's characteristics blend in better than with the Marantz. If your Marantz sounds better in DSP mode than use that. If you want a pure stereo experience go with a regular amplifier instead of using an AVR or you could use the pre-outs of that Marantz and play around with different amps.

Why don't you use both amps then? Best of both worlds. Use the Marantz as the processor/DAC and then use the Yamaha as amp (Using the preouts from the Marantz). This could only work if your preouts can output a fixed signal because I think your Yamaha can't act like a "amp without a preamp".
I don't have a lot of space where I'm at. So, using two amps can literally translating into 2 sets of speakers; one set for Marantz and one for Yamaha.

Personally, I prefer the sound from Martin Logan Electro Stat. It produces very nice DEEP soundstage and is very clear and accurate from hi to low notes in Pure Direct. The room acoustic is ok and is staying constant when swapping between the receivers.

The Marantz roll off in Hi Freq in Pure Direct making Logan doesn't sound good. I will not be able to hear highs in Pure Direct; vocals and instruments sounded liked thru a blanket. The Marantz' "stereo" mode changes the sound quality for the better. It gives the Hi Freq with rich and impactful sound, but, the DEEP soundstage is gone.

Secondly, going with Marantz means I have to get a separate set of speakers. And the Marantz is a Home Theater Receiver; I will need to buy 7 speakers to match Marantz's capabilities. These speakers and amp will take up a lot of space.

While Yamaha sounds better than Marantz on Logan in Pure Direct, Yamaha doesn't produce the rich and impactful sound to music. And, it is not something I can use an equalizer to adjust. Additionally, Yamaha doesn't have the HDAM to compensate the low bandwidth internet radio I stream, either.

I have tried using Marantz pre out to Yamaha to drive Logan. Distortion is unreal. I have tired counter it by adjusting volume on Marantz, while keeping Yamaha steady and vice versa. No luck there.

Is there a solution to fix the Marantz and Martin Logan Electro Stat combo?

Thanks.
 
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Sipping1s&0s

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It's not power that you're lacking. It does sound like audyssey is engaged and the midrange compensation is dulling the sound. Also the marantz does have a slight roll off before 20hz as well.
hi, everett. thanks for the insight. is there a way to fix it to enjoy Pure Direct with Marantz and Martin Logan ESL combo?
 

NiagaraPete

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I had a listen to the small and medium sized Martin Logan ESL powered by a McIntosh amp a couple weeks ago and wow I was impressed. They have bass!!

As with all electostatic spreakers there is a sweet spot but in the seated position they were very nice even to the left and right from centre.
 

Everett T

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hi, everett. thanks for the insight. is there a way to fix it to enjoy Pure Direct with Marantz and Martin Logan ESL combo?
If Audyessey is the culprit, the only way to remove the midrange compensation is through the App, which, IIRC, is $20.
 

Everett T

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I had a listen to the small and medium sized Martin Logan ESL powered by a McIntosh amp a couple weeks ago and wow I was impressed. They have bass!!

As with all electostatic spreakers there is a sweet spot but in the seated position they were very nice even to the left and right from centre.
Definitely a narrow sweet spot and in- room placement dependent.
 
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Sipping1s&0s

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If Audyessey is the culprit, the only way to remove the midrange compensation is through the App, which, IIRC, is $20.
I don't find IIRC app in Google App Store or Windows Store.

Where can I find more info on IIRC app?
 

Everett T

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I don't find IIRC app in Google App Store or Windows Store.

Where can I find more info on IIRC app?
IIRC means If I Recall Correctly. I was referring to the cost. The app is just audyssey.
 

raindance

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The app won't help if he's using pure direct! Waste of money.

I'm not sure I'd use an AV receiver with ML's, they're a difficult load.
 

Everett T

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The app won't help if he's using pure direct! Waste of money.

I'm not sure I'd use an AV receiver with ML's, they're a difficult load.
I'm not sure waste of money is correct because the app is still extremely useful. I drove my old Odysseys with an AVR which was a much larger panel and never had an issue FWIW.

Not knowing more about his setup and settings, Audyssey can still be processing bass management in pure direct. So knowing how his speakers are set in Audyessey and whether he has a sub, would be beneficial.
 

raindance

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I'm not sure waste of money is correct because the app is still extremely useful. I drove my old Odysseys with an AVR which was a much larger panel and never had an issue FWIW.

Not knowing more about his setup and settings, Audyssey can still be processing bass management in pure direct. So knowing how his speakers are set in Audyessey and whether he has a sub, would be beneficial.
Not correct. Audyssey is NOT USED in pure direct mode. At all. Ever. I have multiple Marantz AVR's in my house.
 

Everett T

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That's using the high pass and low pass filters, which don't require Audyssey equalization to be enabled. Plus this won't change treble response one iota. Treble response is what the OP is complaining about.
And I addressed lifting the upper midrange/treble. So it's only appling the high and low shelve filters but still being digitized regardless. If he preferred stereo, then it should be a moot point then. I have one current denon in a system, x3600, 1 4700 that needs installation and I never used any of the direct settings. I guess I, incorrectly, assumed that the large plus lfe would enable full bass management.

More to what I said earlier, knowing more about his setup, including placement, helps.
 
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Sipping1s&0s

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I'm not sure I'd use an AV receiver with ML's, they're a difficult load.

What would you suggest me to use/try?

I have listen to larger pair of ML ESL 11A driven by Arcam SA30 (120wpc 8ohm) via dragonfly black. They sound very nice; the sound got clear 3D imaging, transparent, accurate, and clean with a Sabre accent.

Am I understanding the 110wpc 8ohm from SR6014 is missing the mark on power to deliver the full treble in Pure Direct?

The yammy RX-V2700 is
20 Hz to 20 kHz, 0.04% THD, 8 Ω .................................... 140 W
 
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Everett T

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Why do you have to use pure direct, if stereo sounds good to you? What are your speaker settings in the avr and are you using a sub?

If it sounds good in one mode and not as good in the other I doubt it's placement. Taking measurements might help to visualize if something is missing. Does it sound the same on all inputs?
 
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Sipping1s&0s

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Yes, you are right. It is not placement. It is the avr. The sound changes, hi freq roll off, in Pure Direct, making ML sound dull or vocal sounds liked thru blanket. yuck. :)

Sorry, I don't like the sound from Marantz' Stereo mode, or it's other modes. I prefer Pure Direct, fuller sound in many aspects, esp, the Depth.

Other than manually entering the distance from main listening position to the LR front speakers. Speaker settings are factory default. They sounded the same.

For inputs, I've tried
1) network streaming from Tidal to Marantz' Network plug,
2) USB DAC to RCAs plug into a) CD, b) DVD, c) Blue ray

The output I've tried for each of the inputs above are:
Front LR, Main
Height 2 LR, Zone 2

They (the 8 combinations) sound the same. I am not using a sub.

What are Android apps to measure?

Happy New Year, everyone.
 

Everett T

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Yes, you are right. It is not placement. It is the avr. The sound changes, hi freq roll off, in Pure Direct, making ML sound dull or vocal sounds liked thru blanket. yuck. :)

Sorry, I don't like the sound from Marantz' Stereo mode, or it's other modes. I prefer Pure Direct, fuller sound in many aspects, esp, the Depth.

Other than manually entering the distance from main listening position to the LR front speakers. Speaker settings are factory default. They sounded the same.

For inputs, I've tried
1) network streaming from Tidal to Marantz' Network plug,
2) USB DAC to RCAs plug into a) CD, b) DVD, c) Blue ray

The output I've tried for each of the inputs above are:
Front LR, Main
Height 2 LR, Zone 2

They (the 8 combinations) sound the same. I am not using a sub.

What are Android apps to measure?

Happy New Year, everyone.
If it were me, I'd invest in a measurement microphone for around $100 if it were me,. I've never tried one of the measurement apps for Android, so I can't really recommend one.

I can't say why you hear a big difference between pure direct and stereo, it seems like it would be minor not major, if at all.
 
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