Many questions about headphones.

[dawn.]

Audio is a subject on which everyone has their own opinion, sometimes it is hard to tell what is real and what is not.
I am looking to buy a new headphone and I need to understand this subject better. A few opinions may be useful, so I am asking you the following 8 questions :
1. Could perfect measures describe the entire audio experience ?
2. Do frequency response, thd and group delay accurately describe the audio experience ?
3. Could every headphone sound better with an eq ?
4. How measures your perfect sounding headphone ? Does it has a frequency response near to harman target ? an extremely low thd ? a flat group delay ?
5. What is not eqable ? Peaks ? Noisy/jittery frequency response like susvara ?
6. Knowing that autoEQ project exists, does frequency response (without eq) count for the choice of a headphone ? Is thd the only relevant measures ?
7. What criteria do you base your choice of headphone on ?
8. Do you have any headphone recommendation ?

 

[Somafunk]

Too many questions , name your budget and what source you will use to power the headphones.

 

[ZolaIII]

1 & 2 no, 3 probably, 4 those all would be preferred pluses, 5 you can't push something that can not do something to do it or at best it will do it bad.
6 yes you want it as close to your own preference as possible Auto-EQ still has a lot of development ahead of it, 7; fit, comfort, build quality, how they sound on their own and how they can be EQ-ed, use purpose to design limits, subjective aesthetics.
8 refere to 6 & 7 and continue reading on;

DIY-Audio-Heaven

diyaudioheaven.wordpress.com

When you think you come to a conclusion make sure to try them on the longer session and sleep on it. If you are not satisfied it's on you. Don't expect headphones/earphones to sound as good speakers regarding imaging and sound stage (in some aspects as very low THD they can actually even be better than speakers). In the end remember perfect doesn't exist!

 

[MacClintock]

Audio is a subject on which everyone has their own opinion, sometimes it is hard to tell what is real and what is not.
I am looking to buy a new headphone and I need to understand this subject better. A few opinions may be useful, so I am asking you the following 8 questions :
1. Could perfect measures describe the entire audio experience ?
2. Do frequency response, thd and group delay accurately describe the audio experience ?
3. Could every headphone sound better with an eq ?
4. How measures your perfect sounding headphone ? Does it has a frequency response near to harman target ? an extremely low thd ? a flat group delay ?
5. What is not eqable ? Peaks ? Noisy/jittery frequency response like susvara ?
6. Knowing that autoEQ project exists, does frequency response (without eq) count for the choice of a headphone ? Is thd the only relevant measures ?
7. What criteria do you base your choice of headphone on ?
8. Do you have any headphone recommendation ?

1) and 2) Spatial qualities are not included, otherwise, yes.
3) Most, that are not from the start very close to Harman.
4) I am very fine with the Harman 2018 target for headphones, not so much with the 2019 one for IEMs. Group delay in itself is not audible.
5) Yes, very thin, spikey peaks and troughs, and regions with too high distortion.
6) Basically yes.
7) FR, low distortion, price, comfort, design.
8) Depends on the budget, Hifiman Sundara and Sennheiser HD 6xx are obvious choices, when not listening to very bass heavy music, as EQ is needed in the bass, where the distortion is already quite high and cannot be EQed at will, also the Sennheiser HD800 for it's spatial qualities.

 

[dawn.]

Too many questions , name your budget and what source you will use to power the headphones.

I have a Topping DX1 and my budget is aroung 300€. I am thinking of buying AKG K371 or Aune AR5000 or Hifiman HE400SE or Moondrop Para or Monoprice M1570C (for extremely low thd).

 

[dawn.]

Hifiman Sundara and Sennheiser HD 6xx

My problem with these headphones is the high distorsion below 200 Hz.

 

[Doodski]

3. Could every headphone sound better with an eq ?

Near every headphone can benefit from PEQ. If you want PEQ free software let us know and we can recommend something.

EQ Software for Windows, Linux, macOS, iOS/iPadOS and Android.

Any suggestions are welcome. Post suggestions here. I will gather the details and add them. Thanks. :D This will be organized as results come in. @sweetchaos made a guide for PEQ filter data input and operation. For crossover software go here. Windows: AutoEQ four easy steps to make your...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[Multicore]

Audio is a subject on which everyone has their own opinion, sometimes it is hard to tell what is real and what is not.

I have only other peoples' opinions, none of my own, but that still doesn't help you discriminate real from imaginary.

 

[dawn.]

I have only other peoples' opinions, none of my own, but that still doesn't help you discriminate real from imaginary.

Yes, sure, but I think that opinions can be useful.

 

[Somafunk]

I have a Topping DX1 and my budget is aroung 300€. I am thinking of buying AKG K371 or Aune AR5000 or Hifiman HE400SE or Moondrop Para or Monoprice M1570C (for extremely low thd).

In that case the new Sennheiser 620s, the Aune AR5000, or as a wildcard the new Alex Grell OAE1 would be my choices,

 

[Multicore]

Yes, sure, but I think that opinions can be useful.

Ok. In that case...

1. No. Comfort, appearance, isolation, noise cancellation, brand, warming can all be part of the audio experience.
2. They are useful but aren't enough. In performance measurements, SPL and distortion matter too.
3. Most can to some extent. Some won't improve much while others seem to really need it and yet others can't be fixed by EQ.
4. Perfect isn't a word I'd use but I would seek a smooth response, roughly Harmanian shaped, minimum resonances. But these are no use if the phones aren't comfortable or look embarrassing, e.g. Sennheiser HD800 performs well but I wouldn't want to be caught wearing them.
5. Excess distortion. Low max SPL.
6. Yes because you need distortion free headroom to EQ.
7. Comfort, weight, color, price.
8. Not really. It's very personal. @solderdude has a wonderful collection of very detailed reviews and you might find it useful to read them. I did because they really emphasize that living with headphones long term is about a lot more than modest differences in measurements. There are a lot of headphones that both perform well and are good value.

I should probably point out that I don't even like using headphones. But for some applications I have to. I don't have a positive feeling towards them.

 

[Verig]

1) Spatial qualities, size of the soundstage are missing. So is the shape of your head and ears.
So measurements don't come even close to describing the experience.
Same as with speakers you can't eq dispersion you can't eq soundstage of headphones. Sure, good use of eq will improve imaging up to a point but the limit comes really fast.

It takes time and practise to be able to estimate what different graphs mean to you personally. After all, the goal is to enjoy your music and your taste.

Distortion is a tricky subject. Technically it's not wanted, of course, but you'll be amazed how little it may have any meaning to you. Depending on what kind and where. And the music you play and how loud.

7. I base my choice pretty much solely on 1) fit and 2) soundstage. Everything else you can adjust if needed. Therefore I always try before buying.

 

[Steven Holt]

My problem with these headphones is the high distorsion below 200 Hz.

Wait a minute....AFAIK none of our other members have had trouble with this. The Sen 600 series are very good phones and loved by many on this forum (INCLUDING ME). Have you tried these, or are you making a judgment based on specs? I suppose it's possible at max volume, but otherwise, no. Remember, you're a human being, not a bat or a dog.

 

[Verig]

I have a Topping DX1 and my budget is aroung 300€. I am thinking of buying AKG K371 or Aune AR5000 or Hifiman HE400SE or Moondrop Para or Monoprice M1570C (for extremely low thd).

400SE and K371 should be like 150€? They're quite different animals so perhaps take both?

 

[solderdude]

Audio is a subject on which everyone has their own opinion, sometimes it is hard to tell what is real and what is not.
I am looking to buy a new headphone and I need to understand this subject better. A few opinions may be useful, so I am asking you the following 8 questions :
1. Could perfect measures describe the entire audio experience ?

Only for electronics, not for transducers

2. Do frequency response, thd and group delay accurately describe the audio experience ?

They do show tonal balance (opposite a target on a specific fixture), distortion at a certain level.

3. Could every headphone sound better with an eq ?

yes, but when incorrect EQ is used (for whatever reason) or is incorrectly applied it could make it sound worse.

4. How measures your perfect sounding headphone ? Does it has a frequency response near to harman target ?

Somewhat and a question would be on what fixture,

an extremely low thd ?

That would be handy at louder SPL, most users will be listening at levels below the THD shown in plots. Unfortunately we cannot measure at much lower levels nor is that very useful.

a flat group delay ?

Most are flat and just show some wiggles at low frequencies (pad effects) and a little around resonances. You should look at speakers in a room and then compare those plots to headphones. GD plots can show some where some issues are and is what they are kind of useful for if you know how to 'read' them (correlate to perception)

5. What is not eqable ? Peaks ? Noisy/jittery frequency response like susvara ?

Dips (nulls) can not be EQ'ed and multiple narrow peaks should not be EQ'ed as one does not know if they are a measurement error or real. The hearing also is forgiving for many FR irregularities.

6. Knowing that autoEQ project exists, does frequency response (without eq) count for the choice of a headphone ? Is thd the only relevant measures ?

The choice of headphones should not be based on FR and THD but on more practical matters. Sound can be EQ'ed comfort, fit, weight, hot ears etc can not.

7. What criteria do you base your choice of headphone on ?

If it fits well and sounds nice to you. Not to some fixture, not to some reviewer, not to other people ... but to YOU only.

8. Do you have any headphone recommendation ?

Many... open, closed, sensitive, IE, wireless, lightweight, price, comfort, pad material ... so many aspects

 

[dawn.]

Have you tried these, or are you making a judgment based on specs?

I have never listen to the sennheiser 600 series but factually, distorsion below 200Hz is very high and it needs a big boost at 20 Hz (at least 10 dB). I do not say that they are bad headphones, I just claim that the distorsion in bass region is high (according to the measurements).

 

[Timcognito]

Buy This

Qudelix-5K Bluetooth DAC & Headphone Amp

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Qudelix-5K USB DAC and balanced headphone amplifier with Bluetooth receiver. I purchased this myself but a member kindly donated one third of the cost. The Qudelix 5K costs US $110 on Amazon including shipping. The Qudelix comes in a nice...

www.audiosciencereview.com

and you will have control over any that you buy.

Upper Left, click on Review Index > Click on Headphones > click column headers to sort (price, brand, type) to sort. When certain models interest you come back with any questions after reading the member comments which may answer those issues.

 

[Verig]

I have never listen to the sennheiser 600 series but factually, distorsion below 200Hz is very high and it needs a big boost at 20 Hz (at least 10 dB). I do not say that they are bad headphones, I just claim that the distorsion in bass region is high (according to the measurements).

Sennheiser 650 (same as 6xx) review says "As noted on the graph, extra distortion in bass is not always perceived as such. Instead, harmonics actually help fill out the bass region giving one the impression of more bass, not necessarily more distortion."

So it could be lower but bass distortion is usually not a problem. Also, check the SPL levels in tests. And depending on your music taste there isn't necessarily much going on in 20-30Hz anyway.
In practise these are really nice headphones and very comfy. Personally I don't think I've ever heard offensive bass distortion on listening levels I can endure. (Not counting some really bad stuff in the 80's and 90's.)

 

[Berwhale]

I have never listen to the sennheiser 600 series but factually, distorsion below 200Hz is very high and it needs a big boost at 20 Hz (at least 10 dB). I do not say that they are bad headphones, I just claim that the distorsion in bass region is high (according to the measurements).

You already have a reasonably well performing DAC/AMP. If you purchase a decent headphone like the HD600 and EQ it to preference, I suspect that you will very quickly become more concerned with the quality of your source material, rather than the measured distortion or the HD600 below 200Hz.

 

[kemmler3D]

I'll bite:

1. Could perfect measures describe the entire audio experience ?

Yes, but in the case of headphones you would also need measurements of your own anatomy, since that affects the sound. And it would be pretty hard to interpret what the measurements mean in terms of a subjective experience, but it is possible in theory.

There is also potentially some impact of the orientation/angle of the drivers related to your ear, which complicates it further.

I will say that if you're not a real expert in reading measurements you're much better off listening to the headphones than worrying about small differences in measurements.

2. Do frequency response, thd and group delay accurately describe the audio experience ?

In combinations with measurements of your own anatomy, mostly.

3. Could every headphone sound better with an eq ?

Yes

4. How measures your perfect sounding headphone ? Does it has a frequency response near to harman target ? an extremely low thd ? a flat group delay ?

Minimal THD, harman-ish tuning.

5. What is not eqable ? Peaks ? Noisy/jittery frequency response like susvara ?

Peaks and lots of distortion.

6. Knowing that autoEQ project exists, does frequency response (without eq) count for the choice of a headphone ? Is thd the only relevant measures ?

Yes, because the more you need to EQ a headphone (especially in bass) the more distortion you get and the more headroom you sacrifice from your amp. Bass extension is particularly important in this area.

7. What criteria do you base your choice of headphone on ?

See above.

8. Do you have any headphone recommendation ?

I like Audeze stuff personally. Very clean and low bass.

One thing I will say is that it's common to minimize the importance of THD in low bass. And this is not entirely wrong, we're used to it and it doesn't ruin music, in large part because any low bass in music also has a lot of harmonics anyway, like 99% of the time. But I will also say I had never heard 20hz with (I think?) inaudible distortion until I tried the LCD-XC. It's very interesting.