Making a streamer with Intel Nuc/how

[Berwhale]

And also if you would hear a 5400rpm HDD?

Has the noise from the HDD in a laptop ever bothered you?

The most afraid I am is that I would have to little storage with 2TB

2TB is quite a lot of storage for audio. CD quality FLACs use approximately 5MB per minute, so 2TB can store...

400,000 minutes (278 days) or 8,000 50 minute CDs.

 

[Bliman]

If you're going the NAS route check which media servers you can run on them. The WD you linked runs the Twonkymedia UPnP/DLNA server, but you can't easily install others on it. Synology and some others will let you install other media servers easily (point and click), including Logitech Media Server (LMS). Depending on your taste in music the slight gaps between tracks that most UPnP/DLNA systems end up with may or may not bother you. We're probably heading back to 'too many options' again - sorry.

You can then save some cash by using a Pi instead of the PC. Installation of PiCoreplayer and Volumio are quite well documented, Moode less so, and I don't know about Rune. There are others. My choice would be LMS and PiCorePlayer, but with this hardware choice if you don't like the software you can easily switch to an alternative without having to spend extra. You could even set them up on different SD cards and swap between them.

I've also streamed 352.8 kHz stereo files over my wireless network without problems.

No need for a sorry. Thank you. I rather have information now then choosing the wrong thing and being stuck with it.
So the WD NAS isn't good. Because you need to put software on the NAS too? I didn't know that. I only thought it was storage that you could use without a computer. Boy it is complicated.
Ok here is a Synology https://www.amazon.de/dp/B077DFW4SQ...ds=Synology+DS218J&qid=1582045688&sr=8-3&th=1 price with 4TB 369€. So yes the price is getting bigger and bigger.
So to offset this price. What would you recommend for raspberry pi device or so? I am getting more and more obscure it seems, lol.

 

[Bliman]

Has the noise from the HDD in a laptop ever bothered you?



2TB is quite a lot of storage for audio. CD quality FLACs use approximately 5MB per minute, so 2TB can store...

400,000 minutes (278 days) or 8,000 50 minute CDs.

Thank you for helping me along the way.
I only have a faulty laptop (it works but pretty slow) and to be honest I don't hear the hdd much I think. I also have a hdd on my xbox one and that is also silent. Now I am not so critical about that then with my music.
And you make a great point with 2TB. That are lot's of cd's. I don't think I will ever get such a great collection of music.
It is mostly peace of mind to choose greater.
Would you then only take one of my two options given with the 2TB hdd?
Btw does it make a difference what I choose for playing music and controlling it with my smartphone. Like for example take that I want to put on an album of music. Does that mean that my phone does have to play every song too. In the sense that the battery will always be depleted rather quickly. Or does it give the command to play the album and the computer or the nas handles it by itself?

 

[Spocko]

My vote for premium hassle free all-in-one Linux OS solution is the Roon Rock (assuming you're a fan of Roon)
https://kb.roonlabs.com/Roon_Optimized_Core_Kit
https://roonlabs.com/downloads
(edit: ooops, my bad, didn't realize there was a budget constraint - Roon is a bit expensive)

 

[Jmudrick]

Thank you for helping me along the way.
I only have a faulty laptop (it works but pretty slow) and to be honest I don't hear the hdd much I think. I also have a hdd on my xbox one and that is also silent. Now I am not so critical about that then with my music.
And you make a great point with 2TB. That are lot's of cd's. I don't think I will ever get such a great collection of music.
It is mostly peace of mind to choose greater.
Would you then only take one of my two options given with the 2TB hdd?
Btw does it make a difference what I choose for playing music and controlling it with my smartphone. Like for example take that I want to put on an album of music. Does that mean that my phone does have to play every song too. In the sense that the battery will always be depleted rather quickly. Or does it give the command to play the album and the computer or the nas handles it by itself?

Phone acts as controller only, not much battery.

Personally I don't believe in future proofing when it comes to digital storage given rapid price changes . My 500GB of FLAC lives on Micro SD cards on the laptop and phone. It's backed up on old hard drives. With Qobuz subscription I don't much see the need for more. Maybe I'll get a couple 1 TB micro SDs when they drop to $60.

 

[WesParker]

So speaking of how many ways there are to skin this cat. Your wireless router might possibly already be a lightweight NAS only requiring you to attach a USB external hard drive to it. That would significantly reduce the cost of the storage solution. If your router has a USB port, i'd check into it's capabilities.

Here's an article with a not very comprehensive list of routers that can do this.

https://dongknows.com/how-to-turn-a-wi-fi-router-usb-port-into-a-nas-server/

Most listed are top of the line from respective brands. I like the TP-Link Archer Series, and almost any of these can server as a NAS. (AC2300 is probably the cheapest model that does USB3.0)

 

[captain paranoia]

The WD you linked runs the Twonkymedia UPnP/DLNA server

The EX2 Ultra runs Plex media server, not Twonky. Twonky is on the earlier, cheaper WD My Cloud devices.

https://shop.westerndigital.com/en-...ud-expert-series-ex2-ultra#WDBVBZ0000NCH-EESN

I'm fairly familiar with MyCloud/Twonky...

https://community.wd.com/t/faq-twonky-dlna-media-server-setup-use/95373

 

[captain paranoia]

Your wireless router might possibly already be a lightweight NAS only requiring you to attach a USB external hard drive to it.

Yup; I mentioned that earlier. Well worth investigating. The Technicolor 582n modem/router my ISP supplied (and a backup I bought for £1 for a charity shop) did that; provided both SMB file server and DLNA media server. Not the highest performance NAS, but perfectly good for a media server.

 

[somebodyelse]

No need for a sorry. Thank you. I rather have information now then choosing the wrong thing and being stuck with it.
So the WD NAS isn't good. Because you need to put software on the NAS too? I didn't know that. I only thought it was storage that you could use without a computer. Boy it is complicated.
Ok here is a Synology https://www.amazon.de/dp/B077DFW4SQ/ref=sr_1_3?__mk_nl_NL=ÅMÅŽÕÑ&keywords=Synology+DS218J&qid=1582045688&sr=8-3&th=1 price with 4TB 369€. So yes the price is getting bigger and bigger.
So to offset this price. What would you recommend for raspberry pi device or so? I am getting more and more obscure it seems, lol.

I'll carry on with the info then ;-) Perhaps I should write a cheapskate's guide to quality networked audio...

There are a number of things being done that you can do all in one box, or separate to different boxes connected by a network. Some of the software combines more than one of the functions in a single package.

• File storage / server
• Music/media server
• Music/media client/player - in your listening room(s)
• Control interface - mostly this is via web or phone app, but can be on the client/player too

Most of the software solutions we're talking about can cover pretty much any mix of the above. Some of them can only cover one or two parts of it. It usually makes sense to have the file storage and media server parts on the same machine, but isn't strictly necessary. Volumio and Moode will happily play from a file share on Windows or a NAS.

If you want the cheapest way to get started then you can use your Windows 10 PC as the file storage, and the media server if needed. Get a Pi and stick one of the music player versions on it. That's all the hardware you really need, and it keeps any noisy bits out of your listening area. It's a cheap way to get started and find out what improvements you may need, if any. I suggest the Pi partly because it's inexpensive, and partly because it's got a variety of player software available, each with advantages and disadvantages, so you've got a good chance of finding one that meets your needs without spending anything other than time.

You've already heard the discussion around having all functions in the listening room, how quiet is 'quiet enough', and the trade-offs with cost, silence and storage space.

If you don't want to use the Windows PC, but want to keep the file storage out of the listening room, you need another box. This could be a NAS drive, a PC running Daphile, a Pi with a USB drive running PiCorePlayer, Volumio etc, or one of the more NAS-like software bundles. In this case the PC or Pi are just doing the file storage and music serving part, and you'll need another one in the listening room to do the client part. There's nothing wrong with the WD NAS, but it rules out easily running other media servers on the NAS - whether this is a good trade-off is up to you. Sorry about my old info on which server it runs, but the general UPnP/DLNA preference question remains. If you've got an old PC or laptop that you've not got round to throwing out you could give that a second life.

If you do go down the Pi route I'd recommend the Pi 4, if only to be free of worries about crackles via the USB interface. Most of the software options now support it.

 

[captain paranoia]

So the WD NAS isn't good. Because you need to put software on the NAS too?

The WD My Cloud EX2 Ultra comes with a Plex media server pre-installed. You can also install other 'apps'; follow the link I posted for product details.

The Twonky DLNA server pre-installed on earlier models in the My Cloud family works perfectly well, when configured correctly (see the FAQ thread I wrote and linked to above). I bought my My Cloud devices because they were cheaper than the WD Red HDD they contain. I recently upgraded my 2TB device to 6TB by replacing the HDD (I am able to create a working OS image on the HDD, thanks to members of the WD Community).

Don't get a WD My Cloud Home device, though; it's not a proper NAS at all, as it requires software to be installed on client devices to be able to access the device.

 

[captain paranoia]

I suggest the Pi partly because it's inexpensive, and partly because it's got a variety of player software available, each with advantages and disadvantages, so you've got a good chance of finding one that meets your needs without spending anything other than time.

^^^ This. Especially free software options available.

I'm a cheapskate.

 

[somebodyelse]

I'm a cheapskate.

The real cheapskate option is to keep an eye on ebay for cheap fanless thin clients, but you need to do a bit of homework to know what can and can't be repurposed, or have drives added. That's why I've not recommended it for this thread. This site covers quite a lot of them, including hardware mods for the adventurous. For the even more adventurous there's an esp32 port of squeezelite, although the sample rate will be limited.

 

[Berwhale]

So speaking of how many ways there are to skin this cat. Your wireless router might possibly already be a lightweight NAS only requiring you to attach a USB external hard drive to it. That would significantly reduce the cost of the storage solution. If your router has a USB port, i'd check into it's capabilities.

Here's an article with a not very comprehensive list of routers that can do this.

https://dongknows.com/how-to-turn-a-wi-fi-router-usb-port-into-a-nas-server/

Most listed are top of the line from respective brands. I like the TP-Link Archer Series, and almost any of these can server as a NAS. (AC2300 is probably the cheapest model that does USB3.0)

SMB performance is likely to be poor from the router. Routers are optimised for routing and tend to restrict the amount of resource they will dedicate to serving files. It would be better to put the HDD in the NUC.

 

[Berwhale]

If you do go down the Pi route I'd recommend the Pi 4

I've not recommended the Volumio/Pi4 route on this thread because i've been a bit disappointed with the performance. Maybe i'm spoilt with high spec PCs, smartphones and Nvidia Shield TVs, but I just find the Volumio interface on the Pi a bit pedestrian.

I have the PI4 in the FLIRC passively cooled case, so at least it looks nice...

https://cpc.farnell.com/flirc/102476/case-flirc-black-silver-pi-4-model/dp/SC15308?CMP=TREML007-005

 

[captain paranoia]

The real cheapskate option is to keep an eye on ebay for cheap fanless thin clients, but you need to do a bit of homework to know what can and can't be repurposed, or have drives added.

I have looked into that option... as you may have guessed.

Alternatively, a cheap (~£30) Android Media Box (hundreds of these things available), running the BubbleUPnP App (~£3.50 for what seems to be unlimited licences) will provide all three functions of a DLNA Digital Media Server, Digital Media Controller and Digital Media Renderer. The one I have will stream to SPDIF or USB, or output analogue audio to a 3.5mm jack. Control it locally via the TV it might be connected to (which will also allow it to provide web surfing, streaming video, email, Facebook, etc, etc), or control it from a DLNA DMC, eg. another instance of BubbleUPnP running on an Android phone or tablet.

 

[captain paranoia]

SMB performance is likely to be poor from the router.

That doesn't matter if the primary purpose of using a router as NAS is to provide a media server, providing maybe a few MB/s read speed. We're not looking to provide a high-performance SMB file server (although check out the performance of that Netgear Nighthawk: 230MB/s read 190MB/s write isn't shabby even for a high-end NAS).

 

[Berwhale]

That doesn't matter if the primary purpose of using a router as NAS is to provide a media server, providing maybe a few MB/s read speed. We're not looking to provide a high-performance SMB file server (although check out the performance of that Netgear Nighthawk: 230MB/s read 190MB/s write isn't shabby even for a high-end NAS).

It's not just about streaming. You have to get the data on there as well as back it up somewhere else. I don't know where you're getting those figures for the Nighthawk from. The read figure exceeds the maximum theoretical throughput of 1GbE by a factor of 2. Here's what I found...

https://www.smallnetbuilder.com/tools/charts/router/bar/175-ntfs-read-usb-3-0/35

 

[captain paranoia]

You have to get the data on there as well as back it up somewhere else

It's a USB HDD. You can do a bulk transfer of the media, once, before you connect it to the router. Thereafter, it's a delta when you add more media. Likewise, do a differential backup. If it's a big delta, you can always unplug the thing again and connect it to the PC.

The figures for the nighthawk are from the link up the page. But you are right that they exceed GBE rates, so the figures are to be questioned.

 

[Berwhale]

It's a USB HDD. You can do a bulk transfer of the media, once, before you connect it to the router. Thereafter, it's a delta when you add more media. Likewise, do a differential backup. If it's a big delta, you can always unplug the thing again and connect it to the PC.

Yes, I agree that it's workable solution, although I wouldn't like to try retagging or the changing artwork of files hosted on a router based NAS (with the exception of the Nighthawk). I think a dedicated NAS like a Synology DS120J would be a more performant option, they can be bought driveless for a little over 100EUR in Europe...

https://www.amazon.de/dp/B07YVF3Q5G

 

[captain paranoia]

Synology make decent NAS devices. But I note that is just the enclosure, with no disk. I paid £70 for a WD My Cloud NAS fitted with a 2TB Red...

My approach is to start with the lowest investment, and scale up if necessary; use what you already have, that will meet the requirement. This means you can get experience and find out what is important. So, stick any old USB HDD you have lying around onto your router, and enable the router's file and media servers. Add a cheap, but perfectly capable renderer (RPi or Android box), that will continue to function perfectly well if you choose to upgrade the storage in future.

I can buy a secondhand RPi 2+ for £15. That will run Volumio. Minimum outlay, decent, simple introduction to streaming media from a local networked storage device (router NAS). Or just connect the HDD to the RPi and have Volumio access it directly, rather than via the network (if the router doesn't provide NAS functions).

I get fed up of seeing recommendations for people to spend a lot of money on unnecessarily over-specified solutions.