Major Problem with Professional Monitor Speakers!

[DEF]

Honestly if you hear 8331 you will forget headphones.

The 8331 is more detailed than headphones. You might wonder why. The reason is space. Instruments just hang out in front of you. You hear everything in its own space. You notice things which the headphones cannot show you in the limited space between your ears. Instruments get smashed up together.

I do not have a dedicated room. Instead, I put lots and lots of thick, heavy absorbers and a carpet in my 24m2 sleep+living+office room. Spent around 2 or 3 grand.

I have never tried $4000 headphones but I have tried $1200 ones. Nothing too special. Also a friend of mine tried his brother’s Orpheus. I did not get one word about how they sound. That tells me enough of what I need to know. Of course this is an opinion thing. I cannot imagine a music lover sitting in front of any Genelec ones and not have something to say about them.

Given that the only space I could use them is on my digital Piano since I use 2 screens and a big tower PC on my table, its different. I would be able to toe them in and having slightly more distance.

Also headphones are uncomfortable in their own right. This thing on your head plus the heat and the ear pain. This is why for headphone I just get Bose. Blasphemous I know but comfort matters. No point hurting while listening.

The heat is a real issue. But the pain... I dont have that on my Beyerdynamic DT 770 / DT 990 Pro

One thing that you can try in the meantime is to toe out the 8010 and live with the limited output but sit further from them. I know they sound so good you want to strap them to your ears but they won’t sum properly but you can aim from a consistent axis. If they are stationary to your ears you won’t have limited sweet spot it will move with your head turning. But your head won’t bear that weight.

If you toe them out maybe you will get less highs but your sweet spot will be more forgiving.
Not exactly toe “out” but maybe toed in less than pointing them at your ears.

So I have 8341 now and this balance between a tight but very sweet sweet spot and a more forgiving but not as sweet sweet spot still exists with them.

Right now they are pointing at my nose. The correct spot is so sweet. In fact it’s kind of obvious so you will naturally fix your head to that spot. Still turning the head is fine just left to right position matters a lot.

The alternative is to have a wider sweet spot but center vocals are not so razor focused. Finding an obvious perfect position is much harder but it’s decent for a few inches left and right. Maybe even 6” and then the center moves with your head. But the quality of that center is lower when you finally move that far.

In the more focused set up the center moves very fast and then collapses with side to side movements and the quality decreases rapidly.

It’s also interesting that in my experience many systems are forgiving of turning the head in terms of center image position but tonality declines rapidly.

Actually a pair of Apple HomePods is more forgiving about turns and side to side was forgiving. Maybe its wide dispersion?

They do not support proper AUX and I doubt they will beat the Tannoy's because sound over Bluetooth is worse. At least thats from what my testing showed.

To hear voice in recordings some room treatment is a must. With small setup you may need only 2 panels on the ceiling and maybe one or 2 behind/around each monitor.

My room is treated as far as possible. Every glass surface is covered with heavy acoustic elements. Every corner has 2 basstraps, going to the ceiling. In the middle of the room there is one big ceiling absorber. Although lightweight because my ceiling is not able to hold so much weight as it is a in-between ceiling and the actual load-bearing elements are after that.

 

[srrxr71]

Binaural is different from a studio recording. No doubt anything can be accomplished with sending a signal to 2 ears as we only have 2 ears.

However with studio recording made to be listened to on speakers some recordings are simply difficult on headphones.

This is difficult on headphones but less so on good speakers in a treated room. Why is that?

 

[srrxr71]

If I understand correctly, binaural recordings are monitored on headphones. All adjustments are made on headphones. Playback on speakers (usually) suffers.

Regular commercial recordings are monitored on speakers .... or at least checked on speakers. Any adjustments are made using speakers, because the studio figures that most people listen on speakers. Consequently, I agree that headphone listening may (but may not) suffer.

BTW - I listened to the recording above both on headphones and speakers. I preferred my headphones (Audio Technica ATH-M40x). Go figure. Jim

Yes that is the age old audiophile compromise. If you can’t get a speaker setup to 20Hz -20Khz reasonably flat with sufficient power and bass corrected in room and mid bass dealt with using acoustic panels often people who crave ultimate detail will prefer the headphones.

 

[Chrispy]

Skipped over most replies but my first impression was you simply got used to poorer quality speakers....preference isn't necessarily an accurate/best thing.

 

[DEF]

Skipped over most replies but my first impression was you simply got used to poorer quality speakers....preference isn't necessarily an accurate/best thing.

I would not say so. I do prefer Focal Utopia Headphones for the best sound. But I also listen at a very low volume.
Which seemed to be an issue as the Neumann KH120A and the Genelec 8010A seemed to require more level to be properly audible.
Why? Cause they felt further 'away'.

The TLDR is that monitor speakers
- have a too narrow sweet spot for me which gives me a headache because it feels like my ears are clogging up
- may emit jammed frequencies I cannot process. They usually come with special wave-guides
- may have a higher acoustic pressure on the same volume level

The TLDR is that cheaper hifi speakers
- have more sweet spot and are less critical to place
- hiss often. Hard to find at Tannoy Live Mini at low volume
- have less acoustical pressure on the same volume level

Currentlly...
- I ordered a second Tannoy Live mini to find out if using Stereo is instead the issue.

Conditions
- Room is somewhat treated, around 2-3k EUR are spent
- Room itself is not ideal for acoustics
- Speakers are only at 80cm Distance and on the table without a professional stand


I still prefer the Tannoy Live Mini over the other speakers I had for their acoustical properties.

But acoustically, I like Headphones a lot more.

 

[Chrispy]

I would not say so. I do prefer Focal Utopia Headphones for the best sound. But I also listen at a very low volume.
Which seemed to be an issue as the Neumann KH120A and the Genelec 8010A seemed to require more level to be properly audible.
Why? Cause they felt further 'away'.

The TLDR is that monitor speakers
- have a too narrow sweet spot for me which gives me a headache because it feels like my ears are clogging up
- may emit jammed frequencies I cannot process. They usually come with special wave-guides
- may have a higher acoustic pressure on the same volume level

The TLDR is that cheaper hifi speakers
- have more sweet spot and are less critical to place
- hiss often. Hard to find at Tannoy Live Mini at low volume
- have less acoustical pressure on the same volume level

Currentlly...
- I ordered a second Tannoy Live mini to find out if using Stereo is instead the issue.

Conditions
- Room is somewhat treated, around 2-3k EUR are spent
- Room itself is not ideal for acoustics
- Speakers are only at 80cm Distance and on the table without a professional stand


I still prefer the Tannoy Live Mini over the other speakers I had for their acoustical properties.

But acoustically, I like Headphones a lot more.

Personally I dont like headphone use at all nor nearfield use of speakers. Seems some eq could help out along the lines of a loudness contour/dynamic eq type solution?

 

[DEF]

Personally I dont like headphone use at all nor nearfield use of speakers. Seems some eq could help out along the lines of a loudness contour/dynamic eq type solution?

I actually tried that and I found a couple tweaks that could have worked. One of them was to dial down the mids a LOT. That would end up in sound being more 'direct' than 'live'. The reason why I did that is because I watched a couple of Videos and my ears started to ring easily. But I'm not okay with the speakers being EQ'ed so much. I think I had it completely dialed down. Another thing I did was to listen in Mono. Cause for some reason that helped a bit.

The studio monitors were already sent back. The most recent 'cheap' speakers I had to test were the Creative Katana v2. They weren't okay for their constant hiss, which caused my ears to feel clogged, too. But I could listen much longer with them than the 'professional' speakers. But still. The longest I can listen to the Tannoy speakers.

 

[Chrispy]

I actually tried that and I found a couple tweaks that could have worked. One of them was to dial down the mids a LOT. That would end up in sound being more 'direct' than 'live'. The reason why I did that is because I watched a couple of Videos and my ears started to ring easily. But I'm not okay with the speakers being EQ'ed so much. I think I had it completely dialed down. Another thing I did was to listen in Mono. Cause for some reason that helped a bit.

The studio monitors were already sent back. The most recent 'cheap' speakers I had to test were the Creative Katana v2. They weren't okay for their constant hiss, which caused my ears to feel clogged, too. But I could listen much longer with them than the 'professional' speakers. But still. The longest I can listen to the Tannoy speakers.

Good luck for what will work for your use. Wasn't thinking of a particular one level eq fix, but rather one that varies with volume/level. Hiss can always be an issue that nearfield, tho. You've reviewed the thread on hiss level in monitors?

 

[DEF]

Good luck for what will work for your use. Wasn't thinking of a particular one level eq fix, but rather one that varies with volume/level. Hiss can always be an issue that nearfield, tho. You've reviewed the thread on hiss level in monitors?

I have not. I think I might have not heard the hiss on the Neumann KH120A and the Genelec 8010A. But it could very much be hiss in the inaudible range which affected me!

 

[Chrispy]

I have not. I think I might have not heard the hiss on the Neumann KH120A and the Genelec 8010A. But it could very much be hiss in the inaudible range which affected me!

This is the thread I was referring to https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/hiss-list-s-r.18050/

 

[DEF]

This is the thread I was referring to https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/hiss-list-s-r.18050/

I see. I do think the Neumann were more comfortable, yes. But unfortunately, my room was not fit for it. Interesting! THANK YOU

 

[srrxr71]

I think the key is that basically you prefer single driver speakers. Having a spaced tweeter and woofer means having to sit far enough for the waves to sum otherwise what is causing the issues is comb filtering between the two drivers. That necessitates a certain position and head angle etc.

I have heard something like a Tannoy Live Mini used to great effect in an office setting and it was very nice. It just projects sound into the room very nicely.

In sure it will be just fine as a stereo pair also. They do put a nice smiley face curve on those for good reason and with good effect.

 

[srrxr71]

I actually tried that and I found a couple tweaks that could have worked. One of them was to dial down the mids a LOT. That would end up in sound being more 'direct' than 'live'. The reason why I did that is because I watched a couple of Videos and my ears started to ring easily. But I'm not okay with the speakers being EQ'ed so much. I think I had it completely dialed down. Another thing I did was to listen in Mono. Cause for some reason that helped a bit.

The studio monitors were already sent back. The most recent 'cheap' speakers I had to test were the Creative Katana v2. They weren't okay for their constant hiss, which caused my ears to feel clogged, too. But I could listen much longer with them than the 'professional' speakers. But still. The longest I can listen to the Tannoy speakers.

One interesting thing I had once was a Yamaha integrated amp which had a loudness curve adjustment but was the opposite of what you might expect.

Its loudness knob was a 0 to -30dB(!) control at 1Khz. I had to use it liberally with JBL control 1 speakers. Not so much with PSB Alpha. The JBLs were limited bass they rolled around 90Hz similar to the 8010. The PSB Alpha not so much. Yamaha knew what they were doing.

By the way when I mention my experience with HomePod etc. i’m mostly just giving listening impressions but not really recommending them for your use case. Only you can figure out the suitability for your use case.

In your space I think you need something with more satisfying bass and wide dispersion. The Tannoys would fit the bill as would something like a Sonos play 1. In any case the treatments will still keep the image very focused. Basically anything with a single mid/tweeter aimed at you and a bass driver/passive radiator to diffuse the bass into the room.

 

[srrxr71]

Also you might be interested in knowing these were made. I wonder why they haven’t been made since then.

https://www.reddit.com/r/headphones/comments/e3z5qf
Some people are so lucky.

They solve the major issue with headphones. That they actually use your own pinnae instead of fudging the sound to emulate them.

You could also look into: Aural ID

I’ve tried some ear canal correction products like Nura but came away unimpressed.

Headphones are still the era of designing to a sound character. Most speakers are as well even today. That’s why there are so many opinions and so many darn headphones. I’ve been down that road too in my past. But I drew the line at $400. There’s no reason why about $5-30 in materials needs to cost $4000 with the exception of the AKG K1000 which was $800 at the time of release.

I can go into some history of how the ER-4S came from a true professional company but J&R electronics had them come over to cross sell with IPods. I bought them on the spot. That’s where the path began for headphones to become modern day tulips.

Tulip mania - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Just my opinion

 

[DEF]

Isn't listening very subjective as every ear / hearing is different, too? We have the measurements to give us a baseline in what we want, right? So I could just look which headphone is most similar to a Focal Utopia. in frequency response Or does that not work?
By the way, I never tried electrostats. But one thing is for sure, I prefer to listen at moderate to quiet levels.

 

[srrxr71]

Isn't listening very subjective as every ear / hearing is different, too? We have the measurements to give us a baseline in what we want, right? So I could just look which headphone is most similar to a Focal Utopia. in frequency response Or does that not work?
By the way, I never tried electrostats. But one thing is for sure, I prefer to listen at moderate to quiet levels.

Yes exactly. You can find something that applies a similar “fudge factor” for maybe $50-100 and enjoy it.

I respect Focal as a company and I have enjoyed the Solo 6be a lot. But 4000 euros for a headphone is ridiculous IMHO. It’s a single driver and not even powered. Not that i’m a fan of these multidriver IEMs either. Why would anyone introduce the biggest weakness of the analog speaker into headphones when one driver can handle the whole range? It’s borderline insanity.

As far as electrostats are concerned I have not been down that rabbit hole. Stax products have been around well before the iPod and people swear by them and some of the newer more “boutique” ($$$$$$$$) electrostats. I have no idea what they sound like and why people like them so much. I do enjoy the ER-4S and maybe it’s like that. Maybe it’s that type of analytical sound they enjoy. I like that the ER-4S can be EQ’d very well. They can pump out a lot of bass surprisingly when EQ’d. Maybe i’m wrong about how they sound and what attracts people to them.

I have tried planar magnetic in the Audeze Sine. Real PITA to drive and that silly amp they package with it doesn’t cut it. That is also due to apple limitations on current draw. As a portable headphone it’s really a failure.

Maybe it’s good when properly driven.

It’s just weird in the Head Fi scene with these groups of some people swearing by their form of electro acoustic system they prefer. It seems a little tribalistic to me.

You have people splitting hairs between the different Grados which are basically 2 different driver types and combinations and permutations of wood, aluminum and plastic construction.

Now I use AirPod pros for convenience and comfort. I heard them after listening to my main system. They sound horrible. I don’t remember them being so bad. I really enjoyed them at times before. So I think I just have to get used to them. Otherwise I would just go to Bose which I think sound just fine to me and I have had many years of experience enjoying them. Their IEMs are the most comfortable on the market - which is the issue which ruins the otherwise perfect ER-4S.

Even something like the Koss KSC 75 are quite enjoyable and very comfortable.

If you like lower listening levels you may find yourself preferring headphones/speakers with a smiley face curve. It may even sound better to you than the Focal Utopia if placed on your head blind.

I don’t blame Focal for using the Utopia name but what it means for the speaker line is hundreds of pounds of wood and craftsmanship plus driver units and R&D in anechoic chambers moving huge heavy objects around. The price tag is understandable.

For headphones I can’t imagine that much R&D went into it. It’s just a different tuning than some other product of theirs with a drive unit that may have some special thing done to it. Maybe they are level matching them by hand. Sure care was taken but nobody is moving 300lbs into an anechoic chamber to test and reiterate on design. But that name and that price makes you think it is amazing.

 

[DEF]

Smiley face curve What I do miss is the lower bass extension I could get with the Focal Utopia.
Also it had less distortion than my DT 770 Pro. I had tried AOEN Noire but at least with my AMP+DAC (RME ADI 2 DAC FS) I could not get what I needed.
Now, the AEON Noire were super comfy. But is it really my amp?

I am referring to a pretty low res song as sample. There is this wiggling sound in the background that become almost laser-focus with the Utopia, that sounded like a pretty deep frequency I enjoyed. Its at around 6 seconds. And once more intense at around 2:50 I cannot get it 'proper' on the dt 770 pro either.
Sample:
Shamburger

 

[srrxr71]

Smiley face curve What I do miss is the lower bass extension I could get with the Focal Utopia.
Also it had less distortion than my DT 770 Pro. I had tried AOEN Noire but at least with my AMP+DAC (RME ADI 2 DAC FS) I could not get what I needed.
Now, the AEON Noire were super comfy. But is it really my amp?

I am referring to a pretty low res song as sample. There is this wiggling sound in the background that become almost laser-focus with the Utopia, that sounded like a pretty deep frequency I enjoyed. Its at around 6 seconds. And once more intense at around 2:50 I cannot get it 'proper' on the dt 770 pro either.
Sample:
Shamburger

There is a lot of bass in that song but not the parts you mentioned. If anything the bass stops at 2:50. There is some other wiggling sound in the background but it’s not bass.

The problem with deep bass is that it’s felt not heard. Delivering 20Hz bass to your ears is pointless unless to damage them. This is another reason headphones have deficiencies. It’s also why some people listen with a physical sub and headphones or headphones and backpack or a buttkicker on their chair.

Better to be careful about one off demos. Your state of mind at the demo is a huge factor. Even worse is aural memory.

I know because I made stupid purchases based on a listening session. Your mind, set, setting plus knowing the price/value of the system will sway you.

Maybe try test tones at 20,25,31,43,50,63 Hz and get a feel for how different headphones handle them.

Maybe the tone curve had a trick to play the overtones louder and get your brain to create the fundamentals. Flat is not even a goal with headphones so they can do any trick they want and justify it. They don’t have to measure up to anything. There is no standard.

If you are that detail oriented then try some Etymotic headphone. Any of them. They are much cheaper today than they used to be.

The DT770 at least has professional credibility. How do we not know the DT770 is not more accurate? You can go looking for this sound on a hunt through 10 headphones and if it’s not there then probably it’s your memory or it’s that Utopia with the problem. You can’t imagine it right? Because they slapped a 4000EUR tag on it.

 

[DEF]

I remember the Utopia as making sound everything exciting.
Well. Given that I tried... DT 990, DT 880, HD650, LCD-XC, Audeze LCD-2, Dan Clark Audio ETHER 2, AKG K812
... Nothing came yet close to the Utopia. Is that surprising?

 

[srrxr71]

I remember the Utopia as making sound everything exciting.
Well. Given that I tried... DT 990, DT 880, HD650, LCD-XC, Audeze LCD-2, Dan Clark Audio ETHER 2, AKG K812
... Nothing came yet close to the Utopia. Is that surprising?

Haha you’re making me want one.

I checked some reviews. Most love them and after dropping $4000 who wouldn’t.

They are being discounted now became the new one is coming out at $5000.

Someone mentioned they changed the tonality mid production without warning due to comments that people wanted more bass. How can this be a reference to anything?

One person mentioned several alternative setups that sound about the same at $1000.

One pattern I see is that you are comparing them to some pro headphones and HD650 etc. These are not meant for excitement.

Maybe compare to some more exciting headphones and pretend they also cost $4000. Maybe that excitement will come back.